Dear Fatshark - Plans for Endgame?

At the age of 30+ I consider myself quite a gaming “vet”. Having played most popular/remarkable games. Personally being compelled by rather dynamic and innovative games with random loot such as:

Diablo, Ultima Online, Path of Exile, Din’s Curse, Zombasite etc. - I was wondering if there are any substantial plans in improvement of efficient builds, gear, traits and attributes.

Or is that about it once approaching max. power-level? A somewhat slow grind towards those last 300… or endlessly grinding maps for those last few cosmetic reds or simply rolling close to perfect exotics instead?

I truly love what you have done with the game, graphics, map-design and current, base state of Vermintide 2 upon release. Also Beta phases have been running remarkably well. However some parts of the talents, gear and builds are a bit… underwhelming?

I truly hope this is open for change/improvement? Are there any plans on this end apart from getting erratic skills to work?

Compared to Vermintide 1 at first the choices seem more varied. However even the different variations of each players trinket-choice in VT1 seemed slightly more varied and strategic.
The same somehow goes for weapons and their attribute rolls?

Now we have a trait and two attribute rolls per weapon instead of 3 attributes. Where most traits simply have one Best-In-Slot: All others traits are usually rather underwhelming and basically obsolete in comparison to “Swift Slaying”, “Ammo on Crit”, “Proxy”, “Healer’s Touch” and “Shraphnel”. The same goes for attributes: Attackspeed and Crit-Chance.

I understand that we can’t expect depth and variety as in say: UO or Path of Exile. It’s simply not a pure RPG. But given current crafting and gear… most options are not really options. They are decorative. In practice the choice and best traits/attributes are very limited and singular.

Also talent trees seem to suffer from similar issues: Most talents are rather underwhelming and therefore quite obsolete. So in practice for most classes there are one, max. two viable choices of an actual class. And in that class usually all talents revolve on one “Best in Slot” pick. So basically… many of the choices are not really choices when it comes to being efficient and ending up with optimized builds.

Players love dynamic content. Players love options. Players love choices.

Effectively at the current stage regarding gear-progression, crafting/finetune and endgame VT2 is slightly more simplistic than VT1. Even if I understand that VT1 had many iterations and improvements over VT2… and hopefully VT2 will evolve in a similar, or even better and more exciting, innovative way. Hence this feedback. I also understand that many people will claim that “Gear” is not central in Vermintide. Well that may be somewhat true. However I have to disagree. implemented in an improved way it can add so much to longevity to the game and incentive for players to farm for their last perfect weapons and trinkets. Combined with coop builds, individuality, specializations in optimized teamplay I think it is nevertheless essential. And actually a topic to truly think about if we want VT2 to become the best it possibly can. With a great base to build upon so far.

Suggestions:

  • Remove underwhelming “non-options” and replace them with new meaningful traits, talents and attributes which actually have an impact or enable different, rather specialized/individual builds and actual choices with impact on the character and game.

For example: Where did the ammo-chance on melee-kill go from VT1?
It was quite nice… and balancing wise I see the challenge of implementing it in a balanced way here… however it would give pure ranged “fanatics” more incentive to focus on melee as well - switching back and forth more often. Or simply a different way of enabling ammo-regen?

For example: Certain “op”, “broken” aspects from the beta such as concentrated brew got completely sacked. While they made the game… truly fast/exciting and more varied at least, enabling potential for different metas and builds. Isn’t that the easy way out in a way… despite of challenges in balance? Shouldn’t we try to tone down these interesting directions and variations… and somehow implement them back into the game… in a more controlled and balanced way? With corresponding downsides maybe?

  • Possibly introduce a third layer of attributes to weapons/trinkets (3 blue rolls) and one trait… while still replacing obsolete attributes/traits with more impactful variations? Maybe even two traits?
    Rolling 4-5 meaningful/good rolls even on a red would already bring much more variation/specialization… and challenge to the endgame progression and player choices.

Maybe introduce new/different passive stats to enable more variation, builds and rolls.
Such as passive dodge/block chances or something else?
Maybe other people or the devs themselves have interesting, improved suggestions without deviating too much from the skill-based focus?

How amazing would it be to actually have the very skill-based core and mechanics.
As well as deeper and meaningful customization and specialization options.
At the same… time.

  • Don’t be afraid to try out new things. Maybe even somewhat drastic ones? Maybe on a beta/test-branch or client? A sandbox and playground for yourselves and interested players alike? Don’t be afraid of the usual “balance”, “op”, “nerf” criticism at first. After all: It’s a co-op game. And certainly balance is important. But I am sure there is a more exciting, interesting, varied and innovative way to improve variety and specializations… making the game more diverse - While still balancing things out after short testing and creative brainstorming intervals.

  • Maybe a secondary mini-active and/or globally pickable mini-passives pickable across all classes?

I hope my criticism isn’t too harsh. It’s simply honest and coming from someone who loves what Fatshark and Vermintide brought to us so far. With passion and hope for the best possible mechanics, dynamics and variations… i.e. future gameplay possibilities in VT2.

I am getting close to 600 now. As I said… I clocked… many many hours. Way too many. In different, amazing games. With deep and compelling mechanics. And the endgame is truly… what counts for longevity. As it stands right now. There simply isn’t much incentive or leeway for progression in gear or builds. I have maxed two powerful chars to 30. Both Saltz and Marcus mostly having only one viable talent-tree being Mercenary and Bounty-Hunter.
2 out of possible 6. At least those two are very efficient, specialized and fun.

But it should be 6 meaningful choices. And it could even become another solid multiplicator thereof. 18 Impactful trees/choices, genuine and impactful variations if other layers or more meaningful talents are added?

For endgame content, gear and progression right now: Even VT1 would have slightly more incentive to go back and farm the last few reds and rolls. Which is a situation Fatshark is hopefully aware of, and open towards improvements.

Others have mentioned the Deeds not being too much of an incentive either.
Quite frankly: The Daily Quests and Rewards in VT1 were more meaningful and gave more motivation in that regard. Maybe those can somehow be brought back or combined with additional deed-rewards.

There simply needs to be something else other than easily rolling 2 mods close to perfect. Looting a few time-saving reds. Or grinding your power-level to 300/600.
Something more compelling and innovative other than the typical and simplistic facebook-games’ or p2w “reward-systems”. To put it quite bluntly in comparison to the usual “mainstream” in game development and gaming-culture.

Something which truly takes what we currently have, or had in VT1. And… brings it to the next level.

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We already have “cosmetics” tab and everyone knows that fashion is endgame :sunglasses:.

Id like to see something like Crime Spree from PD2, going mission after mission and adding modifiers to it (seriously this heroic deed system is lame :kissing_heart: ).
You could have modifiers for FF1/2/3%, enemies dont deal FF to each other, regular mobs replaced with higher versions and all these cool things while having it as a regular mode.

Problem would be only rewards, but that could be fixed with cosmetic items, or stuff to upgrade your keep, also crafting resources are supposed to come from chests too.

And yes daily quests would be cool, RIP Bounties :cry:.

They should remove the level cap. Its useless.

haha :smiley: good thing you mentioned this well-known fact to me. Else it would have slipped by. I didn’t know. “SORRY!”

the spree modifiers seem an interesting option and might actually go well with the grind and potential rewards/challenge for teams who are consistent in their runs or spree. one of the current mods like “no pickups” seems rather harsh/difficult. and at least to me i’m not even sure if it’s even worth a try. it sounds very difficult/frustrating to say the least. even for a premade team.

randomized maps with modifiers certainly is a thing which was heavily inspired by Path of Exile. I believe, as many things, Blizzard copied those interesting ideas back into their own D3 as well. Due to a lackluster, initial game. Which initially had severe talent-limitations as well. Even more so as in truly forcing classes like monk into one specific skillset and playstyle to feel at least somewhat “useful”.

In that regard we are already more diverse than that initial D3 situation in Vermintide. :stuck_out_tongue:

Another interesting aspect most probably coming from POE are crafting materials to influence/shape weapon modifiers. Both of these systems were largely pioneered by POE and elaborated on very deeply.

If a third attribute or secondary trait, i.e. more rolls ever get added to VT2 such new mechanics/crafting mats could possibly help players as well. As in having more control and easier progression instead of purely hoping on luck for all of the potential 4-5 item-modifiers. But it shouldn’t become too easy to craft specific gear either. simply a good balance.

the advantage of daily quests were somewhat more meaningful and directional rewards. specifically farming certain needed mats or specific exotics or even reds over several days. while bringing players together in playing certain maps. even maps which were possibly not that popular.

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I’d like to see cosmetics, or new weapons, new maps and such. I’d like to see some new DEEDs added that make the game fun, not just more difficult. Turn all enemies into penguins. Everyone starts with and only with a chainsword. Spawn a garden gnome that cannot be dropped for long and needs to be carried from beginning to the end to completed.

I would despise this game if there were higher improved stats or levels etc added. As a Left 4 Dead player, the joy from the game is the gameplay. You play because it’s fun, not because of the carrot on a stick. Right now it is bearable, where the fun comes from switching classes etc. I like the idea of improving your keep, and if you are hosting would be awesome if other players could see your den too.

Modding will proved alot more content too, which I cannot wait for.

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