Convocation of decay final event

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
21

I agree that if there is an exploit available, players will use it. Unless doing it normally is easier for a certain player. Looking at certain weaves for example if you keep failing and you know there are certain ‘cheese spots’ or easier ways to do it, you will do it. (unless you have integrity and your team or randoms do aswell). So i do think removing the exploit will only do good things and will ‘force’ players in trying it, and at first it’s gonna be alot of failing for the players who didnt practice it before. One of the reasons players left after WoM is because ’ the things we were doing didnt work or weren’t as effective anymore’ and now the players who stuck around are used to it and adapted.

Making info easily available about events like: The circle moves the same speed regardless of amount of players’ or sorcerers act as checkpoints’ could be added to make it easier for players who dont have time to play this game alot so it’s harder to figure out on their own. That way the game doesn’t hold hands for the entire event, but it allows players to make strategic decisions based on the info they have. Ofcourse the basic tips for the game like staying together or atleast in proximity to each other is also important and sometimes forgotten in most event finales, due to panic i would say.

Tweaking an event down in numbers in legend is indeed not really a problem for cata players, but legend is still an official endgame loot difficulty so it shouldnt be made easier, i also find it hard to compare events to each other as they arent the same in workings or area or objective. Legend is also way more popular and has this ‘loot’ mindset. That’s why legend qp is all around more toxic than cata qp because of their mindset and reasons to play, so there will always be way more people complaining about things in legend then in other difficulties.

Making every event the same in difficulty and strat would also be boring imo, i like events being different, events are like a finale boss fight for me, so i dont mind them being harder than the map.

Everytime i fail the event on cata or legend, i know what i did wrong or what was the cause of the wipe, when i find myself in a random group in legend qp i sometimes try to tell people a bit how it works and to not be afraid to drop, but this get mostly received in a toxic way so i dont do it anymore.

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22

That would be true. But only under two conditions:

  1. The exploit didn’t exist
  2. Difficulty spikes would affect the whole community

Why one not being true is easy enough to see. The second one needs more explanation. From Recruit to Cataclysm received damage, enemy health, wave spawns and special spawns are ALL increasing and most likely in a non-linear way. This means that the gap between each difficulty is larger than the gap before.
What does this mean? Difficulty spikes as described here in the forum is something you don’t even notice up to Veteran, even in Champion they are non-existent. This means - as the majority of players is Champion and below - that the majority never notice those difficulty spikes. Result is what we have in the forum is the complain about a minority, namely Legend and Cataclysm players. And even among them not all see it like, so it is a complain from a minority within a minority. It seems unreasonable to adjust to such an amount. Additionally, most of public Legend games have at least one player knowing about the exploit.

Before we do not remove the exploit we have no reliable data if this event is overtuned or not. And even for the case it would be. We are talking about Legend, the second highest difficulty. Again, there is a minimum we should be allowed to expect from the community.

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Legend in this game is the equivalent of playing a different game on very hard. Very hard. There isn’t a single game in existence where the majority of the player base can play Very hard, and do well. So why are we surprised that people are dying on very hard? Some maps are easier than others.
And the convo event is especially punishing on players who lack skill. There. I said it. Reaction time, situational awareness, good aim and quick decision making are necessary to pull it off.
And you are correct. It does demand that you deal with a lot of things at the same time. But that’s part of it. You are playing the equivalent of very hard. Of course the you are going to get swamped.
Legend is not meant to be a cake walk. Or so I believe.

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I agree, but it’s not even close to universally used, I’ve played the event way more often than not. I don’t think the point about recruit and stuff not seeing the difficulty spikes is super relevant when we’re talking about legend anyway. yeah it’s a minority of total players, but so is stuff like “the way reds drop is poorly conceived”, which is something people have been saying forever now lol.

We’re talking about a particular sample of the playerbase, and a change that only impacts that sample. No reason to talk about other groups really.

If people perform fine on every other event bar maybe one or two, the out of line events are the problem, not the players. You can’t expect people to drop to champ because of one or two maps in the entire rotation lol, particularly when there’s no way to blacklist the map out of your QP queue or something.

I don’t disagree with the idea that people sometimes just need to adjust to things, but I think if it’s been more than half a year and that hasn’t happened, continuing to claim that it will is just kind of silly.

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25

I agree on this. I just wanted to establish that we are not talking about something “for the sake of the community” but for selfish reasons.

I partially agree on this. But I think it is important to have end events of different caliber like @anon75893681 said. There is only a problem if the end event reaches the average difficulty of the next difficulty (for Legend it would be Cataclysm). And we have not reached that point, we aren’t even close to it. I’m basically argumenting that the event is not out of line.

Question yourself this. If it has been half a year since the event has been changed, why has it not been toned down again?

  1. Fatshark doesn’t care: This is not only an insane argument, it is also arrogant. And factually wrong. Fatshark has always toned stuff down when they deemed it necessary (see Beastmen, see initial adjustment of end events after the buff). Also, before the stupid argument about seasons is coming. Fatshark has not only said themselves that they also balance during seasons, they have it already done (see Beastmen). So if there would be a problem, it is safe to say that Fatshark would have reacted.
  2. People rarely die there because the majority is using the exploit: Which means that we wouldn’t have reliable data to make an argument. Which again showcases the need to ****ing remove the exploit.
  3. People are not using the exploit and are still rarely dying there: Which means that the end event is not as out of line as some may believe
  4. People avoid the map and only those confident in their skill go for it: I have naturally no data for this only anecdotal. I haven’t seen a single group disconnect after getting this map in quickplay. You have other experience?
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Now that Cata exists, Legend is supposed to be the diificult-but-PUG-able difficulty. Convocation is not puggable. 'Nuff said.

Neither is Fort BlackenedWaffle or Enchanter’s Lair for that matter. Skittergate is bordeline (needs fewer adds on Rasknitt).

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No. Legend is still the official endgame in terms of loot. Cata is just there for players to buy if they want more challenge on official realm. But the core endgame difficulty without dlc’s available to everyone is still legend and should be treated as such, it shouldnt be viewed behind cata, cata is a seperate game difficulty.

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28

You DO know that people in this forum regularly PUG this map, right? You ALSO know that Fatshark has telemetric data to verify this claim, right?

All sides are welcome to make arguments for and against changes in the events. But PLEASE, use some which are not disproven this easily.

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29

I agree with original poster… This event is a big spike of difficulty compared with the average one… And it can result a little bit unfair.

About community the main problem is that inexperienced players don’t want to be helped. Most of them just demand to be good and they play an high difficulty only to pump their ego. The other part just to hope that someone carries them to take a good loot.

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30

Speak for yourself. I haven’t seen a pug finish Convo, Skittergate, or Enchanter’s on Legend even once in the past two months or so. I have seen it on Fort but it’s about 4/5 fails. Not counting exploit runs.

Pugs just aren’t what they used to be now that Cata has split the endgame community.

Nice in theory but it’s just not possible in practice. The fact is the critical mass of skilled players doesn’t exist to reliably pug Legend anymore.

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What do you mean in theory? It’s true, legend is considered official endgame. Yes alot of players that carried legend went to cata but as you know cata quick play lobbies are very low in numbers, most cata lobbies are private or premade but public lobbies there are not alot so i don’t think legend lost all their carriers to cata. Also what do you mean with ‘reliably’ pug anymore? You can’t win legend qp’s reliably anymore because there aren’t enough players left to carry the team?

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Just out of spite I finished a PUG right now with just one other player and two bots. Again, FS has the telemetric data. Making such claims will bring you nothing.

IF you really haven’t seen a PUG finished these maps in the last two months try to find the common factor.

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Those players who were in pre-made in Legend, are still going to be pre-made in Cata - so they weren’t carrying or even part of the pool of players so much. They aren’t suddenly divided from the playerbase and now the skill level is lower because they’ve all gone. They were mostly in pre-made and not in QP anyhow.

You can add the Old Haunts Gargoyle event here for me too. I am beginning to be swayed that it isn’t just convo that’s a horrible spike, it’s a fair few maps now.

The telemetry will show people who do complete the end event, but I suspect it’ll also show a massive growth in teams who can’t. It looks like this is something FS are happy with as it’s been like this for months now and the most recent map has an even more brutal finale - so the question is why is it left like this? If it is a design decision ( and I think it is) …Why? To eventually force people down to Champion if you’re lucky, or force them to another game if you’re not?

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34

The argument is to make final events more comparable to other maps, but this is a hard discussion to have as the baseline is different from person to person.
There is also an argument to make it more in line with the map that you go through before so it’s not such a huge spike in difficulty.

Comparing events is hard because the area is different where you fight, the objective, the enemy types and spawns, disablers or not, your composition and individual skill aswell to a certain degree.

Convocation is among the harder events, but is it out of line? Can we compare other events to it?

If we compare enemy numbers from every event to events being asked for nerfs they are close, some are even higher. unless an event runs on a timer and adds keep spawning if you can’t kill them fast enough. (Which happens on fort because players focus on the little rats and i think fort checks for slave rats + timer delay)

Another thing is the area the event takes place in. Convocation takes place on a big circle with a little circle on top where players rarely make use of the bigger circle. Old haunts, little tunnels everywhere, monks coming from all directions, etc. 2 monks for example are a bigger threat on a little circle then for example the entire righteous stand arena.

Disablers also make an event harder, even if it’s only 2 disablers at a time or a gas in a little event area, stormers casting trough objects, casting or gas not showing are all bugs and shouldnt be a reason an event gets nerfed numbers wise. But it’s annoying and makes an event harder then it’s intended.

Making events more in line with the map is also a good argument.

For example skittergate without events is one of the easiest maps. Didn’t play the latest new map yet but i heard the map is easy and the boss is hard.
Think an event having a spike in difficulty from the normal map is fine, just before you go into the event you have an item area where you can heal up and heal your teammates, it gives a little time to ‘mentally’ prepare for me. It makes maps exciting the same way random monsters patrols and end bosses do.

I think the problem is that there isn’t alot of guides or content creators for legend and up and the game also doesn’t give alot of info easily. Like for example lots of people use steam guides for builds, even if they aren’t perfect, they work for most of the content. nobody wants to spend all their time thinking of a build and going out of their way to check bp’s if they can just copy it, some players wanna just play it more casually without feeling left behind. The problem is that there aren’t any ‘set community strats’ right now, the old ‘community strat’ on convo where everyone stood at a pillar worked kinda before, but now it doesn’t anymore and we don’t have anything else, so those players resort to the exploit or say it’s too hard, some quit, some try, some drop to champ, which is understandable. But now you actually have to make use of the bigger circle if you want an easier time, also depebding on which specials spawn staying in the circle isn’t the best choice.

The thing i’m trying to understand is why legend qp would have so much issues with this event? Is the issue player skill? Knowledge of the event? A different perspective going into it?

Fatshark likes to test data for long times as they showed with kaboom bw. Which is a good thing in some cases, wasn’t for bw but generally a good aproach. Players who were super familiar with the game and used kaboom bw to her fullest potential rekt everything and made complaints very early, but fatshark still didn’t do anything and trusted their data (i assume) which is a good, and then nerfed her when their data showed it was true and some changes had to be made. So i’m sure if fatsharks finds some events overtuned they will tweak it again, but with the release of the new drachenfell maps events are still harder then the map and can spawn lots of elites still, so it’s a design choice and i think a good one.

Maybe with the crafting rework loot will be less grindy which will make failing and attempting challenging events happen more, who knows.

@Argonaut14 not everything was adressed to you mybad, i rambled

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35

Oh, I can do it with bots, and with books. It’s other players that aren’t up to the task demanded by these maps.

These maps are genuinely out of line with the rest of the game.

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Is this a serious question? We’re talking about fatshark here, slow updates and weird design choices is pretty much their thing lol.

How long was BW left in her broken, borderline game ruining state for again? How long have we been lacking basic QoL stuff? How long has the loot grind been so ridiculous? Why are some weapons still borderline useless? Why do we still have talents that are basically useless, or ones that didn’t work at all left in for ages in the past? Can we even access the cosmetics that are sitting there in the game but weren’t enabled for months and months yet? FS not fixing or balancing something doesn’t mean anything.

Edit: This is more a reply to @anon75893681 but I agree that Legend is the end game as far as loot goes, but I think with the current state of loot, that’s really good support for making all events consistent with each other. When you have to spend so long grinding with no control over what you’ll actually get, maps that kill you right at the end just feel frustrating and like you’ve wasted your time. This isn’t as much of an issue on cata, where the goal isn’t primarily loot (though I still want more cata borders/skins).

Also in regards to the point about arenas you made, I think the awful flash bang effect around the sides of the main area in convoc don’t help at all, they really do feel like they’re discouraging you from leaving. I get why it’s there, but it’s definitely not helpful if they want people to drop. I think it’s unfair to say the issue is primarily player skill if an event is out of line, too. Those players might be perfectly fine to play legend on most other points.

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Yes true, loot is an issue because players want to get the best loot and get it fast and not risk losing it in, but it’s still legend.
In cata it’s a different mindset, like you said.

The flashbang is annoying, even when on the ground floor and you kite to close to the platform’s sides. But this could be fixed a bit, i’m never was against changing the event a bit to make it more obvious to players that they can drop (voice lines, lowered flash effect, or removed, etc). Just not a fan of changing enemy numbers right now.

Yes, but how do you know, plenty of players wipe on righteous stand, maybe convo is just harder to carry by 1 player and other events aren’t. Maybe other events are more straight forward positioning wise like horn of magnus and make groups stack naturally which makes it alot easier. Its just hard to know the reason for me, i just feel like if i or other players who find the event fine in enemy numbers, saw a demo from a legend player asking for nerf we could find what could be improved before nerfing numbers down.

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Tbh I think you could nerf it without actually changing the numbers of enemies that much. Just restricting which specials can spawn there would reduce the difficulty of the event a bunch, as well as making it a more consistent run in pubs. Still easier, but not in the same way as the pre-wom event was where you just stand around and smack a SV every once in a while.

This is where most of my points are stemming from at least, I can’t speak to how others feel about it. But from my experience there’s a few that are pretty much guaranteed to lose a couple people in an average lobby, and are significantly harder to clutch than others. No doubt some of the people complaining do legitimately just need to get better, I’ve seen plenty of people dying in weird positions all over the map, but I’ve also seen people I know do mostly fine in legend (benefits of living in a small region I guess) end up wiping or nearly wiping to that event, as well as a few others.

Though the issues with clutching are different to the issues that cause people to die, I think.

I’m not at all against looking at the event more specifically to see what needs to be changed if anything, I’m just against the idea that people are going to adapt this long after the changes.

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If the visibility on the ground were better, I wouldn’t mind this so much. As is, you’re light blind for a few seconds after dropping off making it too punishing. I wouldn’t mind if the horde spawns were staggered for different jump-ups as well.

beaten on cataclysm, but only with good players and no “”"“tanks”"""

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Apart from this, what’s the strat to do the cataclysm challenge ? I’m still wondering to be honest.