Sorry off topic I know, but what am I supposed to pick in that row if I’m not using a crit weapon? The +50% gain from melee kill seems less impactful, or am I sleeping on it?
So it’s about you showing off. To show how great and cool you are and possibly to make something swell.
To the annoyance or even detriment of others. Thank you for reminding me why I despise mankind.
If youre not using a crit weapon you take a massive L. Zealot needs 200 base toughness tbh, and nerf the crit DR so its more consistent with weapons that arent crit.
Id say 200 hp 200 tough and change crit dr feat to 33%
is it about me rushing in? what is so annoying or detriment about that? it was fun successful games.
and even if i was showing off what wrong about that as well?
its realy funny that out of all the reasons, my play is why you despise mankind
I wanted to write something elaborate and eeducating about that. But honestly, what’s the point?
What i will say though is that you misread me. Probably delibaretly.
I said you remind me of why I despise mankind. Not that you are the reason. There’s a lot of reasons actually. Your “me, myself and I”-attitude is just a tiny part of the whole package.
I’d rather play with bots than people with your playstyle. At least they know the importance of sticking together.
Great points op
not deliberately, just didn’t put much thoughts in it.
it’s not my playstyle btw, i do it occasionally, when i get bored only on malice difficulty, while understanding importance of sticking together.
and what i understand is that having one persone rushing ahead is not a big deal, you still have 2 people on your side.
have a bad news for you, this is an attitude of evry living creature.
Seeing how crafting materials are (will be) the endgame, and should be the main goal of a mission if you are working on your progression, I’d say I find much more people who are rushing then people who are slow.
Giving some slow toughness regen when not in coherency would go a long way to fix this issue so that players are able to solo search for crafting mats if they have COD kids rushing in their team.
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I apologize in advance if somebody else has mentioned this as I haven’t read every single reply to this thread, but while I think coherency is a fair mechanic it could potentially be tweaked to make the game experience more enjoyable. I have no experience creating video games, but I do play a lot of them, my idea would be along the lines of:
- When not in coherency your Toughness can regenerate slowly when not having taken damage for a certain amount of time. This could be good if all your teammates are dead and to not discourage players from holding a chokepoint, that previously mentioned by OP, is strategically advantageous without penalizing them for doing so.
–Additionally–
- When players are within coherency range your toughness will regenerate faster. Toughness regenerates at a higher % per player within coherency (e.g. 0=70% 1=100%, 2=120%, 3=140%). This would be a system that incentivizes players to stay together and reward them for doing so, instead of only penalizing those who stray from the pack. With my example above, if you went an even split (2 groups of 2) you would have both groups at 100% toughness regen.
To be clear the example with the coherency bonus is per player in coherency, so if you’re alone you have 70% toughness regen and if you have all 3 other players with you you’re at 140%.
This is just my 2 cents and I hope this makes sense. Either way I’m glad so many of us want to further improve this already really good game!
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You can still pick the 75% dr due to ult guaranteeing a crit and ranged weapon crit also proc it.
I love how logic and facts dragged out so many bad players who have no idea that teamwork is more than just being glued to eachother’s asses
LOL. Right?
Imagine thinking being forced to play as a team is the same as being encouraged to play as a team. L4D2 didn’t have “coherency” yet everyone played as a team, wow imagine that.
It’s dumb when my buddies and I play diff 4/5 5/5 and we choose to split in an area to look for scriptures (…aka teamwork to cover more ground) and we get punished for it. So are we supposed to be glued to each other looking for books and take forever? Thanks fartshart
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I won’t speak for Darktide as I’ve already purged it from memory data banks and reverted back to good ol’ Vermintide 2 programming. However, Vermintide allowed the player to customize bots to their preference. You can change class, loadout, talents, and trinkets - on top of this, there’s also AI mods approved by the developer to which you can use to increase their performance; nothing crazy it’s just little AI tweaks. This resulted in a situation where the player can gear their bots for any difficulty they wish to tackle alone. Since bots do a fine job of sticking together, they aren’t bad substitutes for real players. Though they have kinks; such as, holding a choke point with them is a death trap, since bots don’t know how to do so - better off fighting out in open with lots of space. Tight corridors are also tricky for bots too.
For the skeptical, here’s me doing a Cataclysm run with bots:
Now to tie this to the main topic of Coherency. There were many instances where I had to split from my bots. This is the nature of dodge dancing around an enemy in an attempt to minimize damage, or to pull away and search for specific points of a horde that has low density which will be easier to strike at. There were also situations where I was the last man standing. So Coherency would have been more of a hindrance than a benefit in those moments. The idea of it sounds nice on paper, I understand the arguments for it, but in practice it doesn’t work; neither in what I described earlier or with the flow of combat.
Additionally, 'tide games aren’t the type where you firmly stand still; since that seems to be the only point where you benefit from Coherency, standing still and sticking to each other. You have to be proactive, constantly analyzing battlefield, switching between weapons to clear out threats from afar. You have to be moving around to minimize damage done. You need to also be able to react quickly and plug in any choke points that might overwhelm the group - nothing is worse then fending an attack from multiple fronts while being surrounded. Another thing is that sometimes, you’re going to have to make risky calls depending on circumstance, for instance your team is holding an unfavorable position and you need to fall back away from that chaos; sometimes it’s better to escape and leave team behind and attempt to salvage a hopeless predicament, then to stay together in a bad spot. All of this means, you guessed it, splitting up.
Coherency would have worked for a tactical shooter that was built from the ground up to support such a thing. That means having an actual cover system that facilitates players to stand their ground with a lean function; not this pop-a-mole crap where you crouch from cover then pop back up to shoot at enemies. Or not having disablers/special units get obfuscated within horde density and are still able to pull or attack players from within.
The reality of the situation is that Coherency, like all the other ranged systems in Darktide, were developed in a vacuum independent of the fleshed out pre-existing melee framework. You can tell because of how direct the systems conflict with each other. Ranged enemies can stagger you with bullets if you try to engage in melee. Cover system doesn’t really mesh with the whole 'tide game design. Sprinting is awkward to operate and does little to minimize damage compared to dodging. Toughness, which was an answer to ranged enemies, has a lot of problems associated with its implementation. The list goes on. There’s nothing that marries the two systems together into a cohesive package. They’re haphazardly stacked on top of each other with no thought or care put into how they’ll function for this type of game.
Essentially, what I’m saying, is that Coherency isn’t a good fit for 'tide games. These games are primarily a melee type game with supplemental ranged. Even from a conceptual point of view the mechanic conflicts with the pre-existing melee design. The very concept goes against dodge dancing, for instance. Which is one of the main pillars of which the melee is based of off. Even if we were to completely rework melee or add more elements to Darktide which make it more inline with other tactical FPS, you still don’t need it. As the game already does a terrific job of spawning disablers to keep people together.
The current implementation of Coherency isn’t satisfying - just like all the other things in Darktide. That’s my conclusion.
As I’m writing all of this out I’m left wanting. I desired that evolution for Vermintide. The next step of ascension of which the melee system will try to strive for. After all the years of feedback from Vermintide 2, that was what I was hoping for. Instead, I got a slew of clunky systems, unsatisfying mechanics that don’t interact well with each other, and a cash shop - which has more effort put into it than everything else - with innovative machinations which seek to liberate me of my funds. Fantastic stuff Fatshark, truly. Just a hint, maybe next time figure your game out before monetization.
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Bravo. Amazing post.
I like the idea of coherency, but the implementaion is a bit wonky because of all the other mechanics that make it less than useful, like map design and movement abilities, to name a few.
In my opinion is that it should only give bonuses that aren’t directly important to survival or damage.
Again the Veteran seems to be the most well though out coherency bonus of the four classes, where it’s nice to have a bit of ammo back, but it doesn’t directly affect how much damage you deal or take.
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Brain-salad at its finest. Coherency is a small bonus for those who understand that even if you are good at the game you make mistakes and not always can respond well to new situations. The toughness has some issues sure, but staying together so you can help each other out is preferred. This would be true, whatever the coherency system would be there or not.
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I agree 100% with your post but coherency has made me turn around, or seek out a teammate, to replenish toughness a number of times, (almost every mission) when I play as Ogryn.
As a vet,
So coherency doesn’t matter.
On a more serious note:
My suggestion for Coherency is to add LoS on top of the close proximity. I think this would solve a lot of people’s frustrations. It would also make sense as witnessing your brother/sister in arms dispensing justice should boost your resolve and flood your holy fervor with the emperors might.
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you putting more pressure on your mates that way tho. while being the tankiest class against ranged enemies
Pretty sure that’s made up for by being able to snipe all the ranged threats super quick and efficiently. Nobody is gonna be that much worse off having one less person taking aggro from melee enemies.
i have no problem doing that without this tallent
You’re not wrong. @Forsion Replenishing 10% of my teammates toughness while also being the dedicated player available to clear snipers or ranged threats is a big advantage to staying ahead of the tide.
I’m sure the Zlot and Ogryn would prefer to have the chaff since they gain toughness from killing them and have other close combat bonuses they may be looking to activate. Don’t get me wrong, I can read a situation and will 100% engage to clear the floor faster so we can move on, but having those 3 seconds at the start of a fight, or when the special spawns, can make the difference.
For me, it just comes down to target priority and a good vet will always target the elites and specials first. You have to ask yourself if you would rather see a vet killing chaff or supporting you by killing the elites while you block them/have aggro. When I play as Ogryn, seeing my teammates shoot the enemies around me tells me they are free of aggro and I don’t have to check their location, I can push forward since the attention is on me. If someone is watching my back then I only really need to check on their ammo/grenades in the HuD and wait for any call outs.
The most pressure I feel as ogryn is when someone is not actively trying to fight the ranged units and I have to disengage and find cover. This compounds if I’m stuck in melee. If im trying to disengage and the whole team is stuck in melee, thats when the team starts to scatter, and that’s when players go down. You want someone standing incredibly still, but instead of eating chips and watching, they’re suppressing or providing cover fire.
In Darktide, IMO, you 100% want the melee fight over the ranged fight. You can block/push/dodge/melee during a melee engagement. In a ranged fight you can find cover and shoot back. This is why players (zlots) actively try and catch the patrol before they split up and scatter, forcing them into melee.
Ill be the first to say it’s very noticeable when you have a vet that isn’t the very best at target fire, and that’s partially the game design forcing player to learn a play style, instead of letting them discover their own. Maybe players just like the veteran art design and love the melee fighting system. There is nothing wrong with that, but that’s not how the class was designed. Until we have the option, there is no melee focused veteran and I would look at the game devs, point at V2 and say “12>4”, what gives!
This leads me towards the point of this post. Coherency is not anti-teamwork. The devs needed a way to get players to go back to each other. In contrast, V2 can become very “the 1 man army” show and coherency is part of the devs solution to try and incentivize teamwork. Sure you can still be the 1 man army, just try not to Leeroy.