So, about them, I do not really understand their purpose and why do they even exist, because they sure feel like a bad versions of MK3 in almost all aspects.
And I see that almost everyone have the same opinion about them because literally nobody runs with them, especially MK4 which is the worst weapon in Ogrins arsenal in my opinion due to its awkward moveset(there’s that wierd delay between attacks where it’s getting stuck in the air, also it much harder to cancel the attack by blocking than MK3), which is focused on killing single entities for some reason, and besides having a little more damage against armored units(around +20% more than MK3) and more weakspot damage(MK3 is around 115% and MK4 is 160%) it’s only use is to kill Plague Ogrin a little faster. This weapon has moveset to counter hoard, but why would you even bother taking it if it doesn’t clean hoard very good and have no other uses.
So, MK6, it has really a good heavy attacks(has more cleave damage which I have no idea how calculated, but pretty much the same damage as second heavy of MK3) and moveset(also harder to cancel attacks) is not bad at all excluding third light attack, but it has a problem being outshined by MK3 with its easy and cool light attacks.
In conclusion, these two weapons don’t really know what are they designed for, they feel like hoard cleaners and stats do say that, but their movesets say otherwise especially with MK4 with it’s bad damage, which is not enough to be what it wants to be, being single armored entity killer.
And MK6, it’s not bad, but not good enough to be a replacement to MK3.
You may say it’s because MK3 is busted, but I’ll disagree, I think it’s one of the weapons that give us the vibe of what it’s like to be Ogrin.
So, how do we make them more desireble? I would say, make their features more prominent, such as greatly increasing damage of MK4 and increasing damage of heavies of MK6, it’s just my proposition, so what are your thoughts?
Fix weak spot hit registration. Both weapons have light attacks with significant weak spot damage, but this advantage can’t be attained due to oddly configured hit priority. Currently, when you hit enemy’s head and body with single attack, the damage is dealt as if you hit the body.
Apply these changes to both Mk VI Cleaver heavy attacks:
Increased the sweep speed on the Krourk Mk IV Cleaver’s 2nd heavy attack by 30%. Chain time into 2nd heavy attack from other actions is decreased by 0.15s (from Patch Notes 1.0.25 )
MK6’s heavy attacks are simply too slow to be anywhere near the level of MK3 if things get tough. Hordes mixed with gunners are inconvenient to fight with MK3, but can be overcome with enough sliding and dodging. Meanwhile, on the MK6, combinations like that become an absolute nightmare. Especially if you put thrust on it and try to get to max stacks: Fully charged heavy attacks feel absolutely glacial. Add to that that enemy shooters can effortlessly hit the Ogryn while he is engaged in melee, and trying to launch heavy attacks is bound to get you staggered when hostile shots tear your toughness apart.
MK4 is actually pretty usable thanks to the fast speed of its heavy attacks, making it pretty much the only viable Bleed dispenser in the Ogryn’s arsenal when used with Savage Sweep in conjunction with the blessing that allows your heavy attacks to cleave through carapace. It’s pretty much the only weapon where I’d dare to conclude that the usual Slaughterer + Confident Strikes meta isn’t better in every situation.
Oh, let me ask you more about MK4, do you actually prefer it to MK3? Do you think that bleed is good? What other things can MK4 do other than stack bleed? In what cases is MK4 prefered to MK3? Do you use light attacks? I am actually intrested in your opinion and your testing results
Also, I have to disagree with this statement if situation is purely hoard of pox walkers I would choose Shield in this place, and for the best bleed dispenser I would choose Power Maul with its infinite cleave of charged attacks. But I am not saying that MK4 is a bad bleed dispenser, simply disagreeing with “only viable” part
Yep, they keep touching the armor pen of the stab moves and the speed of heavies but what MK4 actually needs is the ability to hit headshots with L2, L3. Mk6 is just too slow with any of its attacks, like its 2 swings at the start are almost shield tier, then the loop has a huge delay like brunt special, and the heavies have insane windup like brunt basher. The sweep angles are also all pretty bad on the multiple hit moves too.
There’s also the weird Fat Shark balance of them having way harder cleave falloff than Butcher. Butcher isn’t actually that powerful but hits 3 enemies for 100+ damage that goes even higher with slaughterer. Then it has 2 more targets hit in the swing for roughly the same damage targets 2 and 3 take from the other 2 cleavers. The other 2 cleavers only hit 3 enemies with the lights.
I dunno if headshots would make up for this, maybe if the cleavers had another penetration pass that focused on maniac and doubled down flak damage they might be OK. There should be something extremely tuned for those 2 target types in Ogryn’s arsenal, imo.
Infinite cleave doesn’t matter for bleed anymore, only targets damaged. Before the devs changed bleed to apply to enemies hit rather than damaged, your statement would have been true. But that’s no longer the case these days. Power Maul, even with its infinite cleave special attack, can only actually damage 3 enemies, meaning it can only apply bleed to those 3 enemies. Same goes for the Shield. Having massive cleave doesn’t matter for the sake of applying bleed, only the amount of enemies damaged matters and - by extension - how quickly you can launch your attacks.
The devs made that change because Zealot was overperforming with his knife a while back. Unfortunately, they didn’t consider that making bleed apply only to enemies on damaging them would pretty much cripple most bleed builds for the Ogryn. The only exception is the MK4, which, like all of the Ogryns knives, damages twice as many enemies with its cleave compared to stuff like Paul and Shield, meaning that it applies bleed to twice as many enemies. Also, its heavy attacks launch much faster, meaning that it can apply its bleed to more enemies with more safety and consistency.
Cleaver damage is the same beyond the second target for both lights and heavys, unlike Power Sword which has higher target to target damage on heavys compared to lights. That’s what I’ve gathered from Darktide Breakpoint Calculator. It outright clears hordes slower.
what makes Mk VI better in any way? It can chain heavys that one-shot two horde units with Slaughterer? Is that good enough?
Good to know, about how bleed is applied(WHY THE HELL DOES PW DAMAGES ONLY 3 DUDES), but isn’t the MK4 have less cleave then MK6, it kinda was implied so in the stats?
But now I actually see why MK4 is a good bleed dispencer, kinda faster, and can I ask you what to do with the first heavy attack of MK4? Do I skip it or roll with it?
What clears hordes slower? The Power Sword?
If you mean MK3 compared to MK6, I actually didn’t test it, so take this with the grain of salt, but I feel like in perfect scenario MK6 will be faster, but in any other case MK3
Push attack has the same 5 target cleave limit and damage of a Butcher light attack. It combos into heavy 2 on Mk4 Cleaver. Since Ogryn has +4 stamina built in and +4 on knives you can throw out a lot of pushes standing still, hurl tons of enemies with the massive arc of ogg’s shove and come out ahead stamina wise with no curio perks because with this much trash control you don’t need to block or dodge.
Mk6 can’t keep up with the rate of incoming horde and needs to use stamina to dodge so it doesn’t work. Also even though the single target combo of MK4 doesn’t work properly without headshots its still miles faster for killing anything beyond trash too. Especially if you use a can opener Ripper.
At the same time, though, I’m ready to accept that they’re bloat weapons with no positive purpose like the Devil Claws and just want to see Ogryn get better new stuff.
Thank you all for helping me find out more about cleavers, but now I gotta wrap things up.
Now I think MK4 and MK6 are not bad at all, they just have their uses that you need to seek, but still, I think, in order to give them love that they deserve these cleavers need some minor buffs to reintroduce them to the masses, they same way they did with Kickback
I usually roll with it and just Heavy Attack all day. Though that might just be me stubbornly trying to make a Bleed Dispenser playstyle work. The first heavy attack’s damage only cleaves a max of 3 enemies, but it launches fast enough, while its second heavy cleaves a max of 5. Either way, with the Unstoppable Force blessing, combined with the Best Form Of Defence Feat (25% toughness regen on multiple enemies hit with a heavy attack), you can pretty much stand in place and cleave anything coming towards you - including Bulwarks and Crushers, since your heavy attacks just cleave straight through them. It’ll take a while for them to die like that, so expect to either sit there and be busy with them for a while until your charge comes off cooldown, or your allies to dispose of them. Generally, if you use knives, it’s best to lug around a Rumbler, Grenade Gauntlet or Ripper with the Can Opener blessing to take out Crushers within a serviceable timeframe.
Beyond the Unstoppable Force blessing, probably just about any other blessing like Slaughterer, Thrust or Confident Strikes will do alright. I am just stubbornly holding on to Savage Sweep because I am angrily trying to make it work in spite of all my better judgment. Because I am just so starved for trying out new playstyles on Ogryn that I am trying to make off-meta blessings work.
Overall, Bull Butcher remains king simply because it can do everything the other Cleavers can, but it can do it easier, safer, faster and more considently. The only thing that the MK IV possibly has over the MK III is that Bleed Dispenser build, and it’s probably not actually all that good. It’s only real advantage with the Unstoppable Force blessing is that it can theoretically control several Crushers mixed with Bulwarks at once, even with a horde of groaners and other rabble mixed in. It does make me feel good though, because hacking away at a horde in a shower of blood with those heavy attacks satisfies a very thirsty part in my psyche.
Now I understand you brother, I salute your effort and stubbornness.
I am also trying to look into anything other than Bull Butcher, it just gets boring doing the same thing even if it’s pretty much the best thing to do, the META if you like it.
Now I am trying Shield out and later I will move on to other cleavers, that is why I created this Topic, to know more about them, and perhaps raise attention to them so it maybe, just maybe will get a buff
Thank you for informing me about many things I didn’t know, and I wish you the best of luck in your journey for fun in Darktide