You can always throw in more shielded guys - next best thing.
Unfortunately shielded infantry is still easily countered by aoe damage (so Hagbane, most of Siennaās staffs etc.), both of the flails and some shield breaking weapons like the Greataxe, which is good against massed shielded Marauders. All of these would have less superarmour to worry about.
I might be wrong but at the present i think shields actually block hagbane poison if you hit them directly with it.
In some cases they even cancel the cloud detonation, at least according to some bug report i saw although i forgot the specifics.
Lots of good reads in this thread, but i have to ask; isnāt the quickest and easiest way to address this topic to just reduce the stagger of flailās heavy 1? The AOE stagger is kind of its trademark, but no one really needs it to AOE stagger groups of Chaos Warriors, certainly.
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I donāt think that it is quite possible in this game to make an enemy that is threatening all by itself (on neutral terrain) when it is alone, unless you make it straight up unfair with unblockable and undodgeable attacks or something comparably lame. And itās even more impossible to create an enemy that is dangerous alone and have it not be even more unfun when other enemies are around as well. Difficulty in this game for people that got the basics of enemy patterns down is simply only made by enemy combinations in combination with terrain, nothing else.
Thatās also where my idea for an expiriment with lower HP Monsters that appear more often in order to increase difficulty in a new way came from. By having monsters in the mix you increase the difficulty of a situation by a lot, without resorting to damage- / staggersponging.
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Its stagger power in itself is fine. The interaction with Unchainedās buff is apparently the issue. So why nerf it for BW & Pyro just to put it back to where it used to be for Unchained?! Makes no sense. Just tweak Unchainedās buff.
Am I the only one who is okay with them as they are (ice-skating aside)? Yeah, there are some ways that certain builds can bully them, and ults can also do that . . . but having the freedom to make these sorts of builds is the point of customization.
No enemy in the game is intended to be that threatening on their own (unless you mess up). Itās when we get complex combinations of enemies that they become challenging. If Cata is too easy for groups, then Cata 2, 3, et cetera, should be allowed in custom games with a check box or something. Or we could get some new enemies that add new gameplay situations . . .
And these are just Chaos Warriors, anyway. Our heroes have defeated Chaos Champions, Sorcerer Lords, and a Grey Seer. They should be strong enough to kill Chaos Warriors this easily.
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Adding Cata 2 and 3 would simplify things.
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āMy Shade kills Skarrik in one hit. Therefore every Stormvermin on the map should flee in terror when facing my Daggers!ā
Cata 2 and 3 does not change anything about CWs. Cata 3 CWs only need 0 to 1 more heavies to the head from weapons like the cog, exe, or daggers, compared to their normal Cata brothers. Infiltrate, DoubleShotted, Blessed Blade, etc. still remove them without issues whatever Cata you play on. This shows quite perfectly that just slabbing more health on them changes round about nothing.
āComplex Situationā that features a CW, or three, are still nothing but situations with 30 THP meds walking in between. The only times CWs get dangerous is when there are so many that you cant see whats going on beyond the metal wall in your face.
Three Bestigor in āComplex Situationsā are a hundred times more dangerous than CWs, since them charging into you, breaking your guard, will simply annihilate you.
Testing mechanics that require more dedication to kill CWs would not hurt. If that equals them being more scary but less numerous then so be it.
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Chaos warriors were supposed to be somewhere between a normal elite (stormvermin) and a mini-boss (rat ogre).
I think they should be stronger, with a bit less numbers. Damage cap is a good compromise solution (like 1 attack cant take more than 40% hp with bodyshot, or 60% with hs).
Honestly i dislike the whole boss killer specialization and huge damage dealing/amplifying ultimates. Its because of them fighting a mini boss is fun only for 1\2 or even 1\3 of all careers and loadouts, who can actually do something to them.
I hate this huge disparity between the weapons and careers on monster (and superarmor) damage.
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This is basically what armor pen weapons do to cata CWs at the current time.
A Shielded SV needs atleast three actions to be dealt with. Pushing twice, to remove its block and heavy to the head. Alot of weapons will need more than one. If you screw up the shield opening part, or get played by a teammate, the opening dwindles and you might get nothing done.
In comparision, a big bad CW just needs to get hit two to three times in the head to fall.
But we need to consider ultimates (direct damage or buff) - for the damage cap idea, how much do they need to do against CWs.
40-60% seems good to me for ults or attacks under ult buffs, to do. The issue of normal attacks with ap weapons being too strong on CWs- better be balanced by just lowering their (super)armored damage, case by case.
I disagree. Like the Bretonnian Longsword the Flaming Flailās first heavy has higher stagger strength than a shield bash. Unlike the Bretonnian Longsword this stagger is not in anyway limited to a small number of targets because of its aoe stagger effect. It can bodyshot stagger a Plague Monk out of its flurry with no power investments at all. Itās super safe on both Pyro and BW.
Iām starting to believe this isnāt the case. It seems like the tougher than average elite CWs were made to simply fill in the lack of armour and cleave/aoe/shotgun damage susceptibility Norscan hordes have. This explains the ratio of CWs to Maulers.
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If CWs are just there to fill armored role and players are wanting a stronger enemy, why not just increase monster spawn rates?
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Iām not even sure CWs spawn in regular Cata hordes (so not the ones pulled from ambient spawns). All Iāve ever seen is Maulers and Savages. In any case, I think that theyāre fine currently, given the way they were designed. Iām not actually aware of the specific issue youāre pointing out but if itās the case, it sounds like it can certainly be addressed by tweaking UC directly. Any touch-ups regarding CWs should in my opinion first handle the bugs like skating across silly distances and around obstacles whilst mid-whack. Probably their scoop should also be looked into a little, as it feels kinda erratic these days and also has the habit of dealing double the intended damage.
Maybe in the grand scheme of things it would have been an interesting idea to design them from the ground up as a bit closer to stormvermin in size and agility. I was never really sure if theyāre supposed to be this big and frankly kinda clumsy but knowledgeable people say its a pretty accurate representation of what they should be in the lore. It would be nice if they had some more weapon diversity, but strapping a chaos-worthy shield on something thatās already so bulky would feel a bit overkill.
Overall I canāt really agree with any major stagger changes though. In a game where itās enough for some ultimately random imperial guy to shout Sigmarās name in order to make a Spawn of Chaos falter, and where a knight on foot can somehow dash headfirst into a stormfiend and essentially put it on its butt, I canāt really say I see why CWs would deserve special treatment. If anything, I still donāt understand why something like a repeater handgun cannot rupture through their armor, as Iād assume weāre talking about gunpowder-propelled lead projectiles. I understand the Nurgle magic argument, but it seems to apply arbitrarily only to some weapons.
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Sounds good to me. The most challenging times in the game are when thereās a horde + specials + monster fighting the team, so this makes the game harder in a way that I believe could be fun.
If monster spawn rates were increased, the extremely low boss damage some weapons have would need to be buffed, and the extremely high boss damage some setups have would need some moderate reductions. Itās difficult to balance extreme setups.
Iām also interested in the idea of patrols not being avoidable, instead auto-triggering.
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Agreed especially on the first half. If anything though I feel like more frequent monster spawns would make high boss damage dealers less of an issue, especially since most of them are heavily boosted by conc pots and more bosses would mean more likelihood of running out of potions. Obviously what boss killers do to the Lords would still be an issue and need to be toned down regardless.
I feel like if anything that would be removing a mechanic from the game. The way it is currently leads to some pretty intense situations and interesting decision making.
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Because monsters for all setups except boss killer ones are a boring slog, due to damage sponginess, and are much less interactable enemy than a CW.
What i mean by that, is that dodging and mobility is the only playstyle to fight bosses (sans shields), with trash in mix, its always a kiting match. Theyāre staggerable only by certain ults and bombs, block isnt an effective combat move vs them (sans shields again).
While CWs have more variety of approaches, fuller use of combat system - not only dodge, but attack stagger, blocking, and they follow slot system.
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I think that up to 2-3 monsters per run in the regular game is more than enough. The potential for more than that would severely impact build diversity as you would be forced to gear up for kiting or monster damage dealing. The base game should remain accessible for everyone, including the people who like to run umgak stuff.
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If you play some Twitch, Weaves, or moded content, you will encounter lots more monsters than usual. All that does is further increasing the viability of already omnipresent careers that deal more damage than others in less time.
More Monsters dont fix anything.
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