Yes. That is exactly what I’m saying. Leading an overhead into your teammate is a preventable mistake. Not paying attention where the CW is going to strike when he is fighting your teammate is a preventable mistake. Not being aware of what is going on behind you is a preventable mistake. Eating a sweep is a preventable mistake.
In the chaos that Vermintide melee can be, sometimes these mistakes are unavoidable for even the best players. I’m not one of those, and I make such mistakes a lot. But that doesn’t mean these attacks are inherently unfair. A counterplay exists. In a perfect world, you could have not gotten hit.
Even if you have fairly good awareness it´s literally impossible to keep track of your teammates at all times. It´s beyond silly to be responsible for keeping them from eating attacks while you are dodging for your life.
Preventable? Yes by not fighting together, then there is no need to worry about overlapping space. Great plan indeed…or i suppose everyone can bring a weapon that can stagger multiple CW`s nonstop so overheads are not an issue…
Counterplay against an attack isnt “i knew exactly what he was going to do 10 minutes before he did and i predicted his response to my responses that were made in accord with my predictions”.
Counterplay is seeing and knowing what the enemy is doing and moving accordingly, but the problem with the CW uppercut is that as long as you flinch him even for a milisecond he can quickly launch an attack that can oneshot someone.
You can be fighting one or twoCW´s just vaguely near your buddies and one of them has a shout which clips them in the middle of their attacks that you had already dodged. And since you had already dodged you were also in the middle of an attack that you now cant cancel, plus you are too close to escape the very quick and accurate uppercut.
And so you just drop dead, fun times.
…I am fairly sure even the souls games or related like Sekiro did not have enemies that´d randomly shrug off a stun or opening and deliver a oneshot attack with no warning.
Preventable mistakes by your teammates are still preventable mistakes. The nature of a coop game is simply that the consequences of somebody’s mistake affect other people as well. Just like them running ahead and pulling a monster, for example. And it’s their responsibility to be careful about an enemy that is fighting you, just like it is your responsibility to be aware that an enemy not targeting you can still hit you. And that’s not unfair, because even when the enemy is fighting your teammate their moves are still reasonably predictable.
That first paragraph has nothing to do with anything I said. And about the next two: It is absolutely untrue that if a CW gets staggered while you are dodging and / or attacking they can get a sweep off before you could block or dodge again. There is no single weapon or situation where that is true. If a CW gets staggered and you’re close, you need to take the possibility of a sweep following that in account. It’s not more complicated than that.
If you fight a berserker with the same strategy and moves you use against infantry, you will get hit. If you fight a CW with the same strategy you fight a Stormvermin, you will get hit. For a big part thanks to the possibility of a sweep CWs need a different approach than other enemies. And that’s not necessarily unfair. Unfair is when Nurgloth sweeps you with his unblockable and undodgeable attack into an explosion as his minions hit you while helplessly in the air. CW sweeps aren’t that.
You are right for the most part but say that me and my teammates are in a cramped space and a horde of norscans with maulers come rolling in, i got a low stamina+high mobility weapon.
As the fight goes i get two maulers running in after me both trying to overhead slam me and i do not have the stamina to just block them so i gotta move and dodge, but as a result my teammate who was also trying to escape attacks/control enemies end up getting hit.
Is this a mistake? Not in my mind, it´s just a product of fighting in a cramped space, something you cant do anything about every so often.
In the same vein, even in a more open area only to have a teammate flinch a CW who was animation locked and trigger a sudden uppercut isnt a mistake on your part, it´s just punishing you for something outside your control. The only thing you could have done to avoid it was never even trying to exploit the gap you made by dodging his attack and retreated instead.
Except there is, low mobility weapons easily end up like that, in a cramped space you can end up like that, or you can just run out of dodge charges even with a more mobile weapon.
Its not so easy as just looking at the CW and going like “ah he´s been staggered”, no its way worse. you can watch him be in the middle of missing an attack while you are preparing to deliver your own attack after dodging to cause that miss. Then he gets flinched and boom, uppercut.
That attack is extremely fast, on the elf spear with no extra attackspeed i can start an heavy before he does and still not done with the animation before he hits me…and the spear is still a rather quick weapon.
We’re talking about the same attack. (Up)sweep, uppercut, whatever. The one in the video Kuli made, that gets triggered by staggering CWs.
Okay, you’re describing a situation where every tactical aspect is against you and there isn’t really anything you can do anymore. But is that really an example of unfairness? (Especially when we’re specifically talking about CW attacks.) Because, how did you end up in this hypothetical clusterfück? Getting cornered with weapons that can’t handle pressure is the mistake that was made and which was preventable in your example. (And before you claim that this situation is sometimes unavoidable: In which part of which map will this happen without it having been preventable?)
And what do you propose, then, if you’d call your example unfair? No more running attacks? A situation in which every weapon can deal with every situation always? There has to be a risk for situations that you can’t solve anymore, and there has to be a way to prevent such a situation by playing perfectly. Game would be really boring otherwise.
The thing is: That is actually one of the most important parts about Vermintide, but not everybody consiously realizes that. The real difficulty isn’t just in pure fighting skill like weapon combos, and headshot aim, and reflexes, after a certain point. The other super important skill you need is situational awareness, being able to realize when a situation is going to get bad, and then being proactive in preventing that bad situation. Like, knowing when not to advance because you’ll trigger more aggro or a monster. Or being able to predict where specials are going to come from. Or knowing when to pull aggro as IB to prevent your team to get swarmed. Or knowing when to ult to delete a CW before more enemies come in order to prevent a problem, and knowing when not to waste the ult because the CW isn’t going to be a real threath before he gets killed anyways. I’m not saying I can always do this things, but when I honestly analyze a run that failed I can usually in retrospect figure out where the mistake was, and how I / we could have prevented the fail. “I should have kited the horde the other way.” “I should not have went for that rez.” “I should have advanced earlier.” “I should not have shot that.” “I should have ulted earlier.” Such things.
See, this is the part that I explicitly challenged before as well: This situation you describe where you charge an attack, but before it is done the CW gets staggered, recoveres, and does his uppercut, and all that happens before your attack hits and you can dodge / block again. That situation would be unfair, but that situation doesn’t exist. That situation is not true for any weapon. That situation only happens if you charge a slow attack as the CW is at the end of his stagger. Even with the elf spear in your example. If you got hit by the uppercut as you were doing a heavy with the elf spear: You started your attack at the wrong moment and when you could have known a sweep was possible. It’s as simple as that.
I am trying to state that there is a difference between the uppercut trigger and what you describe here, for most “bad” scenarios in vt2 there are things you can or could have done differently to deal with them rather than fall flat. But for the uppercut?
You can be doing perfectly fine but then some teammate uses an ability or shoots/bombs and suddenly you got an uppercut coming that you have absolutely no way of predicting or reacting to.
No i am not describing myself doing an attack while the CW has just been flinched, i am talking about a scenario where he is literally in the middle of an animation but that animation gets cancelled by someone flinching the CW which in turn triggers the uppercut response.
Had the original animation just gone without being interrupted i would have been safe and i would have hit the CW, but instead the animation is cancelled and i am hit with a fast attack that does 150+ damage.
How is animation cancelling caused by something i have no control over into such a massive attack fair or good in anyway? It´s just a random arse punishment for trying to melee the CW with teammates anywhere nearby.
So you are (again) claiming that there exists a situation in which you do an attack, but while you’re doing that the CW gets flinched and responds with an uppercut, and that all happens before your attack is done and you can respond again? For the third time: I’m sorry but that situation does not exist.
the souls games are pretty reliant on making sure every single attack is easily read once you know which attack it is. the CW uppercut is stupid hard to read in a lot of situations, has a bizarre hitbox and does insane damage.
if there was an enemy that acted the way CW do in a souls game, it should be deleted, yes.
I came here to rant on the uppercut, and saw the video Kuli recorded, and was immidiately ashamed. And I wonder why some others wouldn’t feel the same. So the uppercut IS a predictable move, not a result of being unlucky, in which case if one get hit by it after knowing when it will be performed, blame is on him.
Anyways, thanks Kuli, for sharing a very important information and spending your time recording the video just to let us know for sure.
Lot of moves are not reliant or easily readable in Dark Souls, like sudden jump dash some beast looking bosses perform and many turning attacks bosses perform when you are on the side of them. You just know that they will do such things and react to it out of your experience because you could predict them. And you can do the same in VM2. The difference is, in Dark Souls, you have plenty of healing supplies and you normally deal with a single target on a boss battle. In VM2 however, you have 3 other teammates and Ulti.
Yep, and souls games aren’t even close to perfect, there’s definitely some unfair moves included in them, or awful hitboxes (particularly in 2). But an enemy that massively chunks you with an attack that is easily concealed by other enemies would be rightfully derided as poor design, because it is.
Solution to CW being chain staggered is just to make it near impossible to chain stagger them, not to include bs countermoves like the uppercut.
I actually liked your video above and don’t want to prove you wrong because I myself want to get more logic behind this attack, but this happened a lot during my last playing session. Basically CW were not staggered, yet they did the uppercut. And I think I’ve seen this attack without any stagger many many times, especially when CW fighting 2+ people and suddenly changing his target. Or is there any stagger/other logic I missed?
That doesn’t look like a scoop though. The scoop in question always goes upward from his right foot. What I’m seeing there is a regular downward swing, I think. Maulers have it as well.
I don’t think 2 is noteworthy in this regard. It’s probably the slowest, so even the less telegraphed attacks in it can be reacted to.
I haven’t been hit by one in ages. That’s both with Deathwish and without Deathwish. The main weapons this effects badly are ones that are both slow and medium or short reach. Some of these weapons are:
2h Hammer
Greataxe
Warpick
Glaive
Sienna’s Mace
Probably a few more but that covers the most impacted ones. One of these is bad (Warpick). Two of these weapons are mediocre to below average (Glaive and 2h Hammer). Two are decent (Sienna’s Mace and the Greataxe).
This is a built-in weakness for these weapons. You’re supposed to get hit with them by attacks like this. Mobile, fast and long reach weapons aren’t just easier to avoid damage with, they’re able to avoid damage that these shorter, lower mobility and slower weapons can’t. If weapons weren’t balanced this way, mobility wouldn’t be relevant at high skill levels and would instead be seen as something that just makes some things easier. I haven’t really thought this argument out too well. It’s mainly based off of my assumptions on Fatshark’s approach to design, but there it is.
I get the argument about teammates Frostysir made but that should only be an issue when several people are spamming dodges into each other at the frontline, and doing their dodges too early which causes enemies to keep tracking. Stay near each other but not too near.
I just don’t think this underhand swing attack is that fast or unfair. ̶N̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶M̶o̶r̶d̶h̶a̶u̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶w̶a̶y̶.̶
Edit: I’d be 100% supportive of CWs being immune to chain stagger (with exceptions like Foot Knight’s charge). Hell, even the normal elites could build a little second long resistance to stagger after repeated stagger in a short interval.
Getting pushed by Maulers for daring to be on the same planet as them is more annoying than this attack. Feels like they have a massive trigger radius for doing a push.
Edit 2: And the Stormvermin running stab which has the same hitbox as the running sweep. Very annoying attack.
It doesn’t matter much that the upsweep is not telegraphed. It’s not a move that is dealth with solely by reflexes, but rather by anticipation. Like the rat ogre triple slam: If you are at a certain distance from it and charge a heavy attack, the Roger will do his quick triple attack even after you started your attack and without telegraphing it, causing you to get hit without being able to avoid it anymore. But that move isn’t considered unfair by the community, because it is predictable when Roger will do it and people have learned to calculate it in when deciding to attack the ogre or not. The CW uppercut esentially isn’t really anything different from that, apart from the fact that people haven’t learned to anticipate it like they do the ol’ Roger 1-2-3.
