If this was asked like 1 year ago I would of probably said it needs tuning. Now tough I have seen the attack so many times that I can pretty much anticipate it every time its about to happen.
Sure change the bugged damage stuff if there is any but the animation itself is fine.
Also both roger and the spawn have this quick unblockable, undodgeable ground slam, but I don’t see people complaining about those, because everyone knows that they do those attacks only when you are in their face.
True. But if you anticipate it and dodge when they start moving, I’m quite sure that slam can be dodged.
Maybe when you’re hosting, yes. But I’m just bad, because every time I fail to anticipate ut, I get squashed 
Yeah, it’s a nasty one. But, like you said: anticipation and timing is the key. You do the Roger-dance on timing, not really on reaction as well, for example.
2 is noteworthy in regards to absolutely awful hitboxes, the “shockwaves” meme is so relevant to it for a reason.
There’s a lot of examples, it was a big issue with it.
Ignoring the point about weapons because I think that’s a lot larger of a discussion, and I don’t think heavy weapons are generally strong enough to need a big downside like that, but I think it’s much too easily concealed by other elites, particularly if you aren’t aware the CW is being stunned. Downside of those big slow weapons is that you are pretty reliant on stagger and timing to actually do much of anything, they don’t need their strengths ignored too.
There are worse attacks without a doubt (spawn grab has a bizarre hitbox, imo), but it’s still a janky unnecessary move that punishes mostly weapons that don’t need it and players who it isn’t even aimed at.
Mordhau has had so many insane animation abuses it’s unreal lol, lets keep away from letting CW do 460 rainbow wessex accel toe drag feints. Even just one of those words is enough to bring up bad memories.
Yeah, and because bosses are absolutely massive and it’s incredibly easy to see what they’re doing at any time, unless there’s another boss around. Rogre also has like, two actual moves, which don’t really require different strategies.
You’re not ever going to be taken unaware by a boss unless you literally aren’t looking at it.
I guess I got used to it. It’s still the slowest of the three. I wouldn’t call those moves unfair. I’m mainly seeing players completely mess up their dodge or cutting their movement too close to attacks.
I played the game fairly religiously (1.1k hours). I keenly remember that, after the main bugs were fixed, 99% of my deaths were my own fault. It’s no way comparable to the speed of Vermintide 2’s combat and I think bringing the Souls games up in the first place didn’t make sense as a comparison (can’t recall who did). Mordhau is more comparable because it’s first person, so you can’t always keep an eye on everyone/everything like you can in the Souls games.
Is this more of a slot system issue than an attack one? I have this issue with the normal attacks as well, like a CW doing the running swipe attack through another CW. CWs are a lot bigger than other enemies and often at the front because they take precedence over other enemies in the slot system (at least I think they do. They seem to find it easier to push to the front than SV do anyway).
Fast and mobile weapons often face their own issues with quicker elites, particularly SV, which the stagger weapons easily control. Those weapons often get caught out by the quicker elite.
Arguably it’s a game of rock paper scissors, where you counter the elite through its weakness rather than its strength. Chaos Warriors are slow but stagger resistance, so it makes sense to not try to fight them with stagger, while SV are quick but have low stagger resistance, so it makes sense to not try to fight them with speed.
A weapon like the 2h Hammer is going to want speed against CWs, just as a weapon like the Greatsword is going to want power vs SV to stagger them.
Again I’m not super committed to this argument. I think it’s a bit too much of a simplistic view on the combat system and balance, but I find it interesting enough to bring it up.
It’s not so bad now. My point was that a human can play Mordhau and react to that stuff, a human can react to a CW’s underhand attack. From my likely biased perspective, the attack doesn’t look that fast or unreasonable to me.
Once you get used to it it’s fine, but the hitboxes are still pretty undeniably awful lol. Literally teleporting you onto his sword really should have just not gone live, should at least be two hitboxes if they want it to be harder to dodge, with only one impaling you.
Massed SV I agree, but depending on the content a heavy weapon won’t really be able to function well at all there, or at least requires way more skill to do so than a light one. That is just down to the heavy weapons generally being mediocre though, which becomes more of an issue with mixed elites over just single enemy types.
It’s fine for heavy weapons to have big pronounced weaknesses like that, but outright punishing them for their strengths when they aren’t that good most of the time is unnecessary. I don’t think light weapons are ever outright punished for being mobile and quick, unless you’re dodging in a way that encourages running attack spam. And any weapon can cause that, I believe.
It’s both, for sure. If CW had more space around them I wouldn’t necessarily mind it as much, same deal as the running attacks (excluding corner maulers). Attacks that are easily concealed by other mobs are obnoxious to me in general, they just encourage boring play and make deaths feel cheap. The SV stab having an awful hitbox is an issue for a similar reason, same with CW grab.
Ya I heard they fixed a lot of the worst stuff, just was pretty awful when I stopped playing still. A human absolutely could in a 1v1 situation, it’s predictable and not crazily fast for that, but in a 4v50 situation stuff needs to be more exaggerated. Most vt mob attacks would just never hit you 1v1.
Depends on the weapon. Flails for example do exceptionally well with massed SV and deal respectable dps. Merc with MtM, Reikland Reaper and Enhanced Power can stagger massed SV out of all attacks except for the overhead with lights, which makes it fairly safe and still acceptable damage.
It doesn’t really depend on the context anymore than it does for a quicker weapon. Get pinned by several SV in a corner while using Dual Daggers? Dead if not playing Handmaiden. Using the 2h Hammer? If you get a heavy in, you have a fighting chance of getting out of that, plus your push strength is way higher so you may be able to get out even if you don’t have the time to do a heavy attack.
There has to be a price for being able to regain the initiative in a fight. Whether that be through choosing talents over others, properties or picking certain weapons over others.
A lot of these handle mixed hordes pretty well.
The heavy weapons are not punished for not staggering CWs, but simply aren’t rewarded. Light weapons aren’t rewarded by speed when fighting something like massed SV because most of the time, unless you’re running an extremely mobile build like 1.45 dodge range Charmed Life Rapier WHC, or an extremely high attack speed one like Rapier Zealot, which still can’t do this consistently, you can’t get in more than one attack at a time anyway.
Heavier weapons have higher cleave, and while they require more careful inputs, they also require less reactive play, usually have simplified micro and have higher raw bodyshot dps. A lot of the heavier weapons cleave through elites as well, which means they don’t have to dodge as many enemies. That doesn’t scale well into fighting 100 SV (depends, some of them do like the Flails) but a 2h Hammer can definitely solo an SV patrol more easily than a Rapier before specific builds come into play like Fervency WHC.
The Greatsword doesn’t lose value against any form of mixed threat except bosses. 2h Hammer loses out to CWs. The flails lose out to CWs as well, but are safer. Shields don’t lose out against anything in exchange for bad dps. The Rapier loses out vs anything you can’t headshot at that second. Dual Daggers lose out vs massed SV and shields. Dual Axes are unsafe. Swings and roundabouts.
Edit: The big thing for me is the attack just doesn’t look that fast too me. It’s fast, but not so fast that it can’t be reacted to. The only situation I can it mattering is when someone else triggers the attack, in which case you’d only get hit by if you’re too close to each other. It can track, but it’s not like the running attacks or moving overheads which follow players. It shouldn’t track into another player provided the other one doesn’t dodge too early.
My bad, I stand corrected then
Though, I still have an example of CW doing this attack without stagger, though his attack target is probably the door
Chiming in this discussion to say that I don’t like CW uppercuts because of the double hit but really because this attack can’t be dodged on reaction when playing with ping, the only way to dodge this attack with ping is to predict it and dodge it sideways, the attack still has way too much range though.
Maybe that door was STAGGERINGLY sturdy XD
But yeah, have you ever seen a hookrat kick anyone outside their vine breaking activity? Maybe they mixed this animation up with the good old kick for CWs?
WDYM? You never seen Sack Rats killing anyone with a kick?
Jokes aside this one from CW can actually kill you.
Youtube randomly recommended this to me and I noticed the scoop shortly after the timestamp. It doesn’t look like the CW got staggered in any capacity, but he went for it anyway.
Barrel applied the first instances of stagger (might even be increased if it actually exploded under pot effect), then Strength pot + 2h hammer heavies. A lot of things going on in this clip that could have an influence.
The CW does a full attack before even doing the underhand. Weird. Like it only realised it had been staggered until later, or it used a running swipe to get close to a player and the underhand attack was still queued or something, but since it could only be triggered once a player was close maybe?
On high ping there are much bigger issues then CW’s uppercut; disablers. At least uppercuts are blockable. I’d blame high ping on that matter, not uppercut.