Somewhere in the past we had a thread about Unchained and how she can stagger multiple Chaos Warriors out of their overhead animation with the Flaming Flail Heavy 1 attack.
I would like to add on this with this clip:
I will add this second clip. It is less clean but has the Cataclysm tag inside if people need this for magical reasons
I think it is agreeable that this is “kinda” silly and shouldn’t be possible. And yes, as far as I am aware, this even works if you hit the enemy beside the Packmaster.
So, how does this happen? It is an unique combination of the strong stagger of Flaming Flail Heavy 1 and the Unchained overcharge stagger bonus introduced somewhere in the last six months. Obviously, we could let it be like this. But I stand to the comment of this being silly and shouldn’t be possible.
So in order to adjust this sillyness there are two options:
Toning down the stagger of Heavy 1 of the Flaming Flail: It would reduce the largest absurdity of staggering multiple CW at once. However, the Stagger Bonus of Unchained is also silly strong on all her other weapons. Also, it would make the Flaming Flail less viable on her other non-Unchained careers. This brings us to us option 2
Reverting that Overcharge affects Unchained’s stagger power. She is already plenty strong in the melee department without the bonus. And the Flaming Flail would stay the same for Battle Wizard and Pyromancer. So, personally, I can live very well with it being removed again. Overall the better solution.
For the sophisticated there exists of course also a third option:
Removing Chain Reaction from talent row 10 from the game and replacing it with another talent (“Burning Stagger” for the lack of a better name which adds this stagger bonus as a talent). So if you want to have the sillyness you’ll have to sacrifice something else.
Probably the most elegant solution since Chain Reaction is still not really viable and it would keep the bonus in the game for those used to it.
Yep. This change was dumb, unnecessary, and for reasons completely beyond me, undocumented in patch notes to boot, despite its massive effect on UC’s balance.
I agree it could go, but I gotta say I really like your third option here. I’d personally leave it on the row where Chain Reaction already is, since that’s already competing with Frenzied Flame which is a pretty big trade-off. Could also halve the stagger strength gained (so 30% at max heat) if it’s still too much, but then it’d just be an objectively worst version of FK’s staggering force. I’d go for a happy medium like +8 or 9% stagger per unstable strength stack (so 40/45% bonus stagger at max stacks).
Also Abandon already got nerfed pretty hard right? Not even sure how problematic it is any more, haven’t gotten around to trying it since the last patch.
It is a bit silly at times. My personal preference would be to make it a talent, since it is quite a nice effect and UC has a dearth of good talents.
Alas, I doubt it will happen without a whole sale rework to the Unchained. I feel pretty confident that the stagger bonus was added for the same reason Bomb Balm, Outburst, and Enfeebling Flames exist: adding ‘supportive’ elements to the kit to allow the UC fulfill its intended ‘tank’ role.
Although I agree that it is silly from time to time, I still don’t see UC being OP even with this feature compared to BW. With it, she is as good as BW imo. Without it, I would just go back to choosing BW and spam Conflag because it’s basically a ranged C1 of Flaiming Flail.
I think she’d be balanced with a slightly less extreme version as a talent TBH. Having a passive that makes her better at stagger than FK while also putting out more DPS than him doesn’t feel right to me.
BW is in a weird spot where she’s pretty overpowered with a handful of weapons and builds but pretty awful with everything else. Not a great measuring stick I’d say. Conflag does indeed do great stagger but I’d be awful surprised if it puts out nearly the same DPS as UC with Flaming Flail, and using a ranged weapon to stagger things when they’re in your face is less safe than just spamming H1 with very quick access to block in a pinch. Not saying UC is better than BW by any measure, I just don’t think she needs this as a passive to be good.
I’ve played a lot of Unflailed in the last year and yeah, how little investment you need to permanently stagger Chaos Warriors out of overheads on Cataclysm is kind of … strong.
Absolutely do not nerf the weapon, but a stagger bonus nerf would also potentially hurt Unchained on other weapons that have way less stagger to begin with.
Now the question is, with what kind of “investment” should this be achievable? Separate talent, full overcharge stacks, full gear with Opportunist / power vs. ?
Okay, I admit that I haven’t tested Abandon after they changed it. However, I am unsure if it makes much difference since there seems be missing the usual community outcry. Or to word it philosophical: If nobody is complaing, did you really nerf it?
I just think that Abandon would better fit in the level 10 talent row. But it is a different topic and I should concentrate on the Stagger Bonus.
I don’t see that as an issue. With the increased cleave and damage she doesn’t need stagger on top as passive. It wouldn’t hurt Unchained much.
I think an additional talent granting some more stagger power from overcharge is the most sensible choice. I still don’t see much use for Chain Reaction personally and think it could be replaced for this. Also kinda agree with Alsozara that 60 % (is it really that much) is pretty silly alone already. A reduction on top of making a talent would be justified as well. But for now, I guess my best bet would be to ask for making the Stagger Bonus into a talent.
As for investment towards staggering Chaos Warriors from overhead attacks, it should be really rare. The way it was before was actually good. It only works on one attack from the Flail and it needs Opportunist. It has enough utility that it should force you building towards it.
As for investment towards staggering Packmasters out of pulling. It should not be possible at all with normal weapon attacks. It is okay for career skills and specifically designed talents for it like Piston Power or Gromril’s Curse (which both have a activation limit).
I believe the change that was made was that UC’s melee power from Unstable Strength affects stagger the same way it affects damage and cleave. Max Unstable Strength stacks gives 60% melee power, so yeah I think it really is that much stagger as nuts as it sounds. It’s literally nearly double what FK’s staggering force does, except on top of a passive that also does that to damage and cleave. Pretty nutty for sure.