Can we please rework the assassin rat?

It’s very obvious that the assassin rat is based on the Hunter in L4D2, I’m making this comparison to point a few things out.

  1. The hunter was completely silent unless prone and ready to pounce.
  2. When it did pounce it made a loud roar noise.
  3. If you were able to stun it, it would be staggered for a few moments so you could kill it.

In contrast.

  1. The assassin rat makes loud obnoxious noise when it spawns in, or is on the map where you cannot pin point its location.
  2. It makes no warning noise when it’s ready to strike.
  3. It makes no warning noise when it pounces.
  4. It recovers incredibly fast after you shove it, where it can essentially pounce you before your attack lands.
  5. If it fails its attack it can teleport away to complete safety and attack you from some random location.

It’s surprising to me how much the assassin rat has going for it considering it’s in a melee focused game whereas the Hunter was in a FPS game.

At the very least, I’d like it to not recover so fast after being stunned by a shove and to remove the ability to teleport. Assassin Rats are not winds of magic users so I fail to see why it should have the ability to vanish into thin air. I also would love for that loud obnoxious skittering noise it makes when it’s in game to go away, instead I’d rather it spawn in complete silence but have warnings when it’s ready to strike or has pounced, which would be more suited to the assassin rat, instead of that loud noise it makes when it’s on the map in my opinon.

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Because Clan Eshin has a history with the Land of Nippon. So Assassins are basically Ninjas and it is not teleportation but Ninjutsu.

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Except the Skaven seen in Vermintide 2 is not Clan Eshin but Clan Fester.
Also, if we’re talking about lore accuracy then the assassin rat behaviour is no where close to how Clan Eshin does things.

Sounds like you never played Vermintide 1. Assassins were deathly silent in that game. Most of the time they didn’t even do the eerie whispers when they spawned in. You could sometimes get some very soft sounds when they landed after hopping a fence, or you could hear their cape fluttering. But they were dead silent 95% of the time and far, far more vicious. Their pounce was way faster and it was almost impossible to knock them out of the air if they targeted you. Normally they wouldn’t release a victim unless pushed off and they were very tanky on Cataclysm, meaning that if you were just swinging at them, by the time they were dead they’d also take the victim with them. They’d roll around much further when pushed and they were also much faster to recover after a push in that game, meaning that it was frequent for them to just reposition and pounce you anyway after a push. Also, they had a lot more bugs going for them in terms of rebounding from walls or instantly pouncing from fences or ledges without hopping down and their damage output was bugged as well. Sometimes they’d take a player from full health straight to the grave in one glorious light-speed pounce from across the map.

By comparison, they are extremely tame in the 2nd game and in my opinion one of the easiest specials to deal with. They are slow, loud and very squishy.

Edit: also, the assassins in both games are clan Eshin mercenaries hired by clan Fester.

Globes are also clan Skryre.

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?? How? Clan Fester does not train Assassins. Skaven Specials in the Vermintide Games are mercenaries bought from the great clans in order to increase their war power. Assassins are from Clan Eshin, Warpfire Throwers and Ratling Gunners are from Clan Skyre, Rat Ogres (and Packmasters I think) from Clan Moulder. Not sure about Globadiers on the spot.

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I owned V1 but it’s been a long time since I actually played it.
I remember not really liking it because the game play felt clunky, and a rip off from L4D2. (I was still playing L4D2 back then and preferred it until TLS update) but most fatal of all, sometime the game wouldn’t launch from an error. But that’s beside the point.

I understand your point is that they were far worse in the first game, but they’re still bad in the sequel and need some kind of work. I’ve seen them do ridiculously crazy leaps to pounce someone, and I do really hate how they can just teleport after you dodge or shove them, that’s not right.

That said, if the assassin rats really are from Clan Eshin, then it’s a pity they were introduced as Hunter knock offs. Because that’s what I think when I see them, I don’t think Clan Eishin when I see them, I think Hunter 2.0 but buggier.

They do need to fix a number of things regarding assassins:

  • ADHD movement
  • Too fast recovery
  • Too loud
  • Limit its escape abilities (E.G remove ninjutsu teleport or slow it down significantly)
  • Doesn’t care about gravity
  • No weight of movement
  • Has spider sense
  • Doesn’t care about frames
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Agreed.
If they won’t rework it then at least fix it as you suggest.

While Hunters have been a likely inspiration for the gameplay elements of the Assassin, we have to notice that their behaviours is pretty much in line with Lore:

Some of the most feared Skaven to creep through the Under-Empire belong to this elite group. Masters of poison, exceptionally skilled in the arts of hand-to-hand combat, and versed in the ways of stealth and conspiracy, these killers sell their services to any Skaven Warlord who can meet their exorbitant fees. They even offer their services to Humans who ask the right people and who offer the proper compensation.[2a]

All Eshin warriors are trained to learn these defining skill-traits, but only the Assassins have the skill and experience necessary to undertake the highest tier of the Clan’s training. It is then that the secret arts are taught, some of which are ancient techniques studied in the Far East, but many more are unique fighting styles of the ratmen’s own design. By the end of the long initiation, an Eshin Assassin can jump many times its own height, hurtle over obstacles or back-flip a great distance. He can run faster than a galloping horse and climb up smooth surfaces with ease. In motion, an Assassin is a blur, able to rain blows upon a foe or pluck arrows out of mid-flight.[1a]

These assassins are so adept at hiding in the shadows that many suspect magic at work. The final test in an Assassin’s training are death missions assigned by Clan Eshin’s ruling council, presided over by Lord Sneek, the leader of the Clan and one of the Lords of Decay. After surviving the mission, the Assassin is considered an acknowledged master of the arts. It is thanks to their fearsome reputation that the Council of Thirteen often employs Eshin’s Assassins in their day to day affairs.[1a]

Source: Eshin Assassin | Warhammer Wiki | Fandom

The only thing i couldnt find on the fly was the Smoke Bomb (which is typical for Ninjas though). But they are so fast that their movement is blurry, jump high and fast, are stealthy, backflip several meters, etc.

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Globadiers are also Skyre, I think Saltzpyre (maybe Kerillian too?) is the only one that specifically calls them all by clan, although it is only the Globadiers specifically that he uses that clan name for.

Plague monks are clan Pestilens.

I think Stormvermin are mercenaries but I’m not sure about the clan.

On topic, Assassins are maybe a touch over tuned in some areas; their ability to pounce butt first without turning around (even from the host perspective) is always hugely frustrating.

To a degree though, their chain pouncing often makes them easier to deal with. If they instead ran around evasively before pouncing that’d probably pose a greater threat for longer.

5 Likes

Except there’s one problem, they’re not moving fast, they completely vanish into thin air. They should use a smoke bomb to run away, but not be given a free teleport.

What you quoted is after a member of Clan Eshin completed its training, which would make it a warlord like Deathmaster Snikch. Also let’s be clear, Clan Eshin doesn’t dispatch foes by leaping on them like a hunter. If we were to change the assassin rats skin to a hunter and if possible gave it the same audio files as the hunter, but kept the assassin rats AI, everyone would be wondering what a hunter is doing in Vermintide 2. Might make for a good mod actually.

Nay. As in VT1 assassins are hired from clan Eshin, just like the machinery is bought from clan Skryre and (iirc) packmasters from clan Moulder. In VT2 we got the plague monks which are on loan from clan Pestilens. There was a post mentioning how clan Fester is somewhat rising in importance and that lead to Pestilens lending them the monks.

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Ah, you are right. Let me redirect then:

Gutter Runners are elite skirmishers and scouts, second only to the Death Runners and Eshin Assassins in the art of stealth and speed. Their attacks are quick and effective, frustrating their enemies as the Gutter Runners appear, attack, and vanish just as quickly in a flash of smoke or a splash of shadow.[2a]

Source: Gutter Runner | Warhammer Wiki | Fandom

Here we have the teleport Ninjutsu.

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I’m sorry, but a gutter runner pounce is not equal to its teleport. It needing to pounce but then suddenly vanishing after being interrupted is not “just as quickly” as its attack was.
So there’s very clearly a discrepancy here.

For its attack to be just as quickly as its escape it would need to be able to teleport directly onto a player which would be OP as heck.

I agree, but we have to take into account the different nature of the games. In the first one the enemies very very few and far between, even the hordes where brief occurrences of a few lines of them. As such having a very sneaky rat fit it very well.
In VT2 you have a tide of them, making it very hard to pinpoint singular enemies (not to consider that they can pounce through allies), and that’s not too mention the incredible amount of noise that’s going on at all times (not least, the all-present ultimate shouts): if they were quiet as VT1 counterparts we would not be able to know one was coming (and I’d be pretty pissed at the 1000th unnecessary “Isha!” shout cutting one off).

Seriously, in my opinion the only thing which should be fixed is their instapouncing and sliding, but those are unintended and as such should be fixed eventually.

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Hunters in L4D aren’t really threatening. Just because Gutter Runner’s behavior may have been inspired by Hunters doesn’t mean they must have same level of threats.

I personally find Leeches way easier to deal with compared to Smokers, but I wouldn’t argue that Leeches need buff, because Leeches and Smokers are two different things.

  1. Hunters do emit a “searching” idle sound - a soft growling sound. Just like Smoker’s cougphing or Boomer’s gurgling sounds. Not sure about the Versus mode and sprinting though, but we’re not talking about Versus are we?

Also, all special zombies in L4D had their unique musical cues that were playing as they spawned.

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There are 2 kind of Sneak Rats:

Eshin: Great Clan, first user of Martial art from Nippon, Cathay. They are the assassin, gutter runner, Triad, and even Sorcerer (Lore of Shadow or Sneak, i don’t remember)

Eshin Thrall: Thrall clan of Eshin, have most Eshin unit but they don’t have the Sorcerer

Other clan can get some Gutter Runner, Assassin… by mercurial means, just like Plague Monk, Skryre Weapon Team and Morrs Stormvermin

Actually Hunters make no noise when they’re standing up right.
They make a noise when they spawn, when they attack, crouch and when they leap, but if the hunter want to reposition itself by standing up right, it won’t make noise.

I fail to see how comparing the current state of the assassin to a far worse state it had back on VT1 is helping. Ok so assassin was far more broken in first game so we are to be thankful that it’s still broken but less ?! I do not get it! That does not contribute to anything. OP is right, assassins are plain bad. There are so many issues around them mentioned above as well in the whole wide forum. My main concerns are :

  • No sound while pouncing
  • Instantly vanish before they even finish the roll animation so as OP mentioned sometimes your first attack after shoving it fails to connect
  • And if you are a client it is nigh impossible to push without getting that wonky connect and instant disconnect right after which in turn cause many issues as well, like dying from the connect dmg or dying because character is in recover animation while surrounding units pound you relentlessly.
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