Sienna, Pyromancer in particular is overtuned thanks to the complete disregard for overcharge one can give with the weapon trait that removes overcharge on crit, and her 25 talent which practically everyone does because it is so superior to everything else.
Other careers obviously need tuning, buffs in most cases, and ideally the infinite ammo gimmicks go out the window, but there needs to be overcharge management.
like, so many of them? elf on waystalker or shade, kruber on huntsman or merc, BH?
ok i’ll stop here. i have a different view that’s backed up by my own experiences which are clearly not shared. i can match pyro beamstaff siennas in my groups mostly because i play a lot of the classes listed above, and i know how to maximise my combat uptime. i’ve repeated many times that there are many situations where sienna can’t kill as fast as other classes can, but it’s not a common sentiment.
Then there is no reason to continue the conversation between me and you, because we disagree on the very basics. Imho only BH can match Sienna in universality, with others having noticeable weaknesses. And even BH has a weakness - it has to reload from time to time, and during that time it can be easily overwhelmed.
This is exactly it.
Overcharge management is supposed to be the equivalent of reloading, but it can be -totally- disregarded.
yes, i believe we agree on this at least, that we disagree on the basics.
if you are talking about BH, you shouldn’t be caught reloading in combat a lot - killing a mob gives you a free shot, that’s an entire volley burst - in a horde situation, if you alternate poking a mob in the face (i use rapier) and switching to volley burst, you basically have unlimited ammo and don’t need to reload. also, not sure if you know, but the BH can clear an incoming horde much faster than a sienna can by simply spamming it down. the free blessed shots crit can also be used to take down chaos warriors especially if there are mobs around to refresh the buff.
if i need to reload, it means i have just dumped my entire ammo clip into several elites or enemies or a boss, and there is no way a sienna can match that sort of burst damage in that short span of time (in some situations burning head is better of course, but that’s an ult)
i just feel like you are putting pyro on too high a pedestal - the other classes ARE able to compete with her output.
^ This x2.
It’s shared @mookanana, I completely agree with what you have been saying. I’ve seen merc and BH spec’d to clear infantry mow hordes down just as well. Specially BH with volley and scrounger, they don’t even need to wait for BS if spec’d correctly.
I don’t know, people just jump straight away on the nerf bandwagon. I’m not saying Sienna is NOT in need of being looked at [or at least certain weapon combinations], but to just call for nerfs because a character designed for horde clearing clears horde well seems unjust. I do think that her ulti probably comes back a little quick though.
They have a problem though - they can’t effectively clear spread hordes in the open. Sienna can, cause F. Press F - goodbye horde wherever you are.
And specials. And Elites. And CWs. And bosses. And… oh, that is it.
And she does that by
i wish the pyros in my legend games could carry the team like you describe, without me having to do anything. i really do.
Come on Nik, that’s exaggerating bro. It will kill a handful of infantry or a crit to the head will kill a CW. Like i said before, I do think it comes back too quick though.
Another thing I keep harping on about in threads is that I want the last tier to dramatically change a characters ulti. 30% CDR needs to go. There should be a talent that changes the ulti to focus more on horde wipe, and a talent that changes it to be better at killing single target. It really shouldn’t do both.
Anyway, that’s just my opinion.
That’s not build’s problem, that’s a skill problem. When I tested this build, and I don’t play Sienna much, I was never overcome by others, not even once, not even by BH all the 5 games I played.
I agree, though, that people playing pure ranged careers are usually most skilless. Imho most weak players play SIennas and BHs. They just stand behind and shoot and die to any force majeure or even to a regular wave.
Did you watch the vid?
thats… kinda my argument.
with the rest of the classes. a skilled ranged dps class can compete with a skilled pyro. the thing is, i assume you play enough games to be considered skilled, in many situations it’s not about the class, but rather knowing how to position yourself to maximise the use of your class. with all your knowledge of the game, even without playing sienna, you know how to put urself in the best positions to tackle hordes, elites, shoot at enemies skulking about, maximising uptime on everything… all that stuff comes with experience.
when u compare yourself to a specific class, you’re not just comparing it to that class, you’re comparing it to the entire skillset of the player, which is alot more than just what the class can do. i reckon that BH u were talking about wasn’t maximising his potential, whereas you are really excited about this build and are actively trying to kill EVERYTHING in sight.
skill is such an intangible topic, so i guess that’s why it fuels so much debate, lol.
i will agree though, that particular build is very easy to play once you get the hang of it (spam on things to get multicrits, throw ult) i don’t play it often tho cos sienna doesn’t suit my playstyle.
Yep. That’s why I prefer comparing my performance to my performance, rather than other players. And I can assure you, that BH is much harder to play. It needs some skill, you need to swap weapons, go into melee and take care of your ammunition. Even regular Sienna requires some skill, cause you shotgun so much and rely on your weapon to deal damage.
With this build you just beam stuff and press F. A lone rat? Beam it. A raider? Beam it. A chaos warrior? Just beam it then F it as soon as ult’s ready. A Stormvermin… hey, maybe I should RMB for o… oh, to hell with it, beam it.
Yeah, I think we can reach common ground in saying her ult comes back too quick. That build is crazy. Once again I think the end talents need to change so she isn’t a master of both horde killing AND single target with her ult.
I don’t really think that is a fair statement mate. People mostly play what ever character they find enjoyable. My little bro plays Slayer because he loves jumping around the battlefield as a dwarf, I play BH/WHC because I love Saltz personality and weapons [not to mention he looks bad ass]. Everyone has their preference. So you will find “skill-less” people [Or maybe more accurate, under-skilled for a certain difficulty] aren’t class specific.
Also, did that Flamestaff get lucky last night? Because it is shooting sideways…
Its a bug for that particular staff/illusion.
Supposed to be fixed in 1.0.8 I believe?
yep!
yea, i agree with you, the pyro beamstaff with resourceful shooter is a very easy build to play.
Some classes will be easier to play than others. I do not think there is any way around this.
IMHO increase Pyros cooldown by 10% and call it a day.
Agree and I think this is a good thing for newer players.
That is both true and not true. Some people play classes because they feel like it, but some just find it hard to deal with difficult mechanics, like melee or even aiming and deflection. And when I say some, I mean a lot. And these people tend to pick BH and SIenna, cause they’re the easiest. That is why these careers tend to have bad reputation, for the very same reason Kerillian has bad reputation on Champion and lower.
Too easy, too effective. New players will barely learn anything playing such Sienna. Classic beam/bolt Sienna is already easy enough, but at least teaches some mechanics. And another problem is skilled players, that completely destroy maps with this build.
I dunno if that build is really all that crazy. You can pull of some pretty sick numbers with passive/bad teammates with other classes. This pic is me on quick play with 3 pubs who tended to fall down as soon as an enemy got close. Righteous stand, legend. I even had SnS so I was pretty gimped VS elites.
