If you’re looking for a textbook example of how not to handle a gaming community, look no further than Fatshark. It has proven time and again that it’s either unwilling or incapable of fixing its own broken systems—particularly its bots, which remain buggy, unresponsive, and a major drag on gameplay. Even worse, when the community steps up and delivers smart, working improvements through mods, Fatshark responds not with gratitude or support, but by shutting them down. Brilliant.
Rather than embracing the people who care enough to fix what they won’t, they actively disable/sanction solutions that work better than anything they’ve managed to implement. It’s a baffling mixture of stubbornness and incompetence.
If they want to regain even a shred of good will, they should reactivate/unsaction the working bot improvement mods immediately and stop acting like feedback is a threat. Get it together, Fatshark…
Don’t be dramatic. They updated the game, the bots mod doesn’t work with the latest version, so it is unsanctioned. Bot mod needs to be updated but hasn’t since 2023. Fatshark even had some bot improvements in a recent patch.
I’m not a dev so I can’t say why they haven’t improved bots more, but I can hazard a pretty good guess.
Not enough people play with just bots. It’s a co-op game, most people play with at least one or two other people if not a full team. The bots are more manageable and seem to do better when there’s only one or two of them.
The bots really aren’t that bad. I’ve got 1200+ hours of play, a lot of that with only partial teams, and neither me or my friends have ever thought bots are a “major drag on gameplay”. If you take the time to equip them with the right weapons and talents, they do awesome. But there are some weapons that the bots just don’t know how to use and if you leave them equipped, you’re gonna have a bad time.
I usually run with Ironbreaker, Handmaiden, and Mercenary. Give em all shield weapons with Heroic Intervention and they’re quite survivable. Give Kruber a repeater handgun and he’ll destroy specials.
Are they perfect? No, sometimes they do dumb stuff. But so do human teammates. I feel like the bots are about as reliable as the average Legend quickplay player.
The mods only get disabled when Fatshark confirms that the mods have ceased to function as intended. Sucks but that´s what it is afaik.
So what you´re really asking for is to devs to get put back into working on vt2 code but at this point…not likely, so much stuff from ages ago was left unfixed.
We’ve reviewed the code for the Bot Improvements - Combat mod and taken a look at resanctioning. There are some current blockers to this, which the original mod author Grimalackt would need to look at fixing.
These are:
Bots not heavy attacking (a presumption from looking at the code) is a blocker for resanctioning. Either rip out better_melee or fix that part of the code
Fix the revive range being reduced (Currently the mod says ally_distance < 1.5 while unmodded has ally_distance <= BOT_INTERACT_DIST where BOT_INTERACT_DIST is 2.4
If the original mod author can implement these fixes, then we can certainly look at sanctioning this mod again. I’ve also left a comment on the mod itself, with these deets:
Lev i strongly suggest you ask the peeps making decisions to “adopt” the mod as is,update it on your end and implement on a permanent basis. The instant outcry about the loss signals a large interest in it…plus it seems wrong to hedge so much on the goodwill of a single outside person. The guy shouldnt be pressured for not updating what appears to be an essential mod for someone else’s game, he should be thanked, appreciated and have his work duely utilized for the betterment of the original cause it was made for.
Especially given you guys previously promised to do that for mods recognized for their good qualities and did so for some.
I agree with what frostysir said but i will also voice my own concerns: I have not played the game for the last 28 days since the mod became fully broken but it has been almost insufferable for 50 days since the eac update so i went as far as refunding all 9 of the premium cosmetic sets to make a statement and that statement is if you dont want to continue supporting the game in the most basic way why should i keep supporting you?
Anyway do you seriously think hes going to come back after being gone for years? I will never understand why fatshark devs at the time never put bot improvements combat into the base game like they did with other mods because it should have been the first mod to get put into the base game but for some reason never made the list. Why is that? Why is it not happening now too? Its one of your top 3 mods for a reason…Do i need to explain why?
Heyo, folks! While there’s nothing we can do regarding sanctioning until the mod author themselves take action, I wanted to let you guys know that feedback on bot AI is still welcome and we’re looking into improving their AI further with later updates. No promises on exactly what’s coming, but we’re ironing some kinks based on previous feedback.
Similar to the improvements done in recent hotfixes, we’d like to polish pain points regarding their behaviour, but without necessarily improving their combat capability itself - we still don’t want bots to overshadow actual players.
Rather than focusing on the Bot Improvements mod itself, we’d welcome more concrete feedback on specific behaviours that need to be ironed out. “Bots die when surrounded by a patrol” is probably not something we’d act on, but, for example, issues like them not reviving in situations where there’s very few threats around is something we are looking into.
This may sound silly, but, what exactly is stopping you guys from either reaching out to the guy and getting the codes&working from there, provided he´s still active, or just reading through the mod description and implementing all that it does?
As for what is wrong with the bots, i think it may be quicker to list what isnt…that´d be why the reaction for the mod being gone came about so quickly.
…
And no, just “ironing out some kinks” isnt likely to be enough, as other users commented, with playercounts dropping the need for even semi-good bots rises and the current ones are just prone to suicide. Crumbling instantly under any pressure, still particularly to gas, fire and gunners. Or all 3 grouping up in 1 spot infront of the boss, standing still and attacking while overhead slam comes down.
Heyo, folks! While there’s nothing we can do regarding sanctioning until the mod author themselves take action.
Yes there is but the devs refuse to do it and we will never know why.
I wanted to let you guys know that feedback on bot AI is still welcome and we’re looking into improving their AI further with later updates. No promises on exactly what’s coming, but we’re ironing some kinks based on previous feedback.
Similar to the improvements done in recent hotfixes, we’d like to polish pain points regarding their behaviour, but without necessarily improving their combat capability itself - we still don’t want bots to overshadow actual players.
This type of response is beyond exhausting at this point. Do i really need to point out things like the promised deed rework too?
Rather than focusing on the Bot Improvements mod itself, we’d welcome more concrete feedback on specific behaviours that need to be ironed out. “Bots die when surrounded by a patrol” is probably not something we’d act on, but, for example, issues like them not reviving in situations where there’s very few threats around is something we are looking into.
Classic fatshark You have the information you are already asking for but the devs just refuse to accept it lol.
Beyond just respecting the original mod author’s ownership of their mod, there’s various reasons that make it not so simple. Without getting into specifics:
We have a very limited bandwidth for what we can take on and must pick and choose based on feasibility and priority
Not all of the features in the mod are features we agree with. These are either fixes to things we don’t believe are issues (but are fine to change in an opt-in mod) or issues that we’d rather fix in other ways.
Various features in the mod have been implemented already.
Other changes to the game have made certain features obsolete without us implementing the feature itself.
Most likely there’s also other reasons but these are some that come to mind right now.
But this is why we’d rather focus on specific issues you’re currently facing and pointed feedback. That way we can look at what we can do with our own solutions, with a fresh look at current issues and pain points.
oh, thank you for the clarification, knowing the perspective helps a fair bit, but now i am very curious about a couple of those specific points instead.
Got any examples for either of these? I honestly feel like nothing comes to mind, bots are still very prone to standing clustered in gas/fire/monster range and doing little except dying. Still wont shoot fire/ratling and still go on crusades away from even a downed player to chase a gasrat (using melee) or such.
Or just standing still and tanking elite overheads, seen that too.
And as far as respect goes for the original author goes, that´s honestly a perspective i do not agree with. The man worked out a fix for an issue that he, and apparently others felt was a major one but this system you guys have implemented is not…user friendly, putting it mildly. And it has issues with any kind of patching and updates on your end.
The best way to respect his work is to recognize the issues the work was created to fix and adress them. Anything less is really just exploiting his good will and work. If you guys still care about the vt2 community you ougt to notice .x
I’m going a bit off of memory, and perhaps I’m mixing up different Bot Improvement mods, but things like bots not wasting healing, bots not healing zealots and improved attack selection for bots are examples of things that we’ve implemented since the mod was made (with our own solutions).
Things like bots pinging elites or some of the changes to career ability usage are things we’ve decided we do not want to implement, for example. But we’re fine with a sanctioned mod having the feature, as it is opt-in and not the default.
Our focus is not necessarily to make bots better fighters, but to remove non-sensical behaviour that makes them frustrating teammates in some situations. Like I mentioned earlier, improving the revive logic, for instance, is on our radar.
This is good feedback, these are specific situations where they’re behaving in ways that don’t make sense and that perhaps could be improved without risking making them better than a regular player.
This is a bit more suspicious; bots obviously know how to block and dodge and shouldn’t just take attacks to the face, so it’d need investigation to see under which circumstances this can happen. Video examples could help nail it down.
By this I meant that we will not simply copy code (nor would that be optimal, really), nor do we want to modify his mod without permission. Like I said, we do want to address specific issues and improve the bots from our side as well.
Thanks for the reply. I mean at last for god sake force the bot use range weapons. They see a gunrat, warpthrower or hookrat and run directly into their fireing line and die or I get hooked and they stand 2m beside me and decide to fight the waves or try to chase the damm hook rat through the whole map in order to engage him with melee. Those bugs and unrealistic siutations never happend with the “Improved bot mod”. PvE game or not… I am sometimes tired of people just rushing and destroying the whole game so I want to decide when I play with Bot or not in order to farm proper item… When the bots just threw the Tomes away and take a potion it also suck. So often I realised at the end that a tome is gone cuz the bot just changed it unwillingly… Fix please those frustrating Bugs or just reactivate the old “Bot improved mod” I still use it in modded realm and even if its “outdated” it works well and way better than your own bot system
All those are extrem important factors and shall not be missed. Your “solutions” not to implement it is like a punch in the face to all loyal Vermintide 2 player who are enjoying the atmosphere and like to play the style and velocity with bots as they like. You also can implement all those stuffs but have a option to turn it off or on? Whats the problem with that?!?
It happens reliably when the player holds blocks but gets out of the way of an attack in the last second of an enemies attack and the bot is directly behind them in line of the attack.
I believe the bot logic ignores the attack because its not a threat to the bot until the player decides to dodge instead of blocking the swing because blocking would stop the attack before it reaches the bot (if anything im more impressed with what wizardy the original creators managed to make the bots recognize this).
Ive seen this exact situation so many times i could probably reproduce it easily but i cba with recording software. Just try what i said against a SV overhead, should be very easy to reproduce.
I like this behaviour. It teaches players how to play with humans too. Dont drag swings into other people, position in a way where nobody else is at risk. Something A LOT of actual players are incredibly bad at.
I no longer play V2, so from memory one key feature of the mod was that the bots no longer concentrate on bosses. If they do and we have a boss+horde combo, they die almost instantly.
Everybody knows the bots don’t recognize packmasters until they hook somebody.
Bots barely or never use ranged weapons against specials. They could have a delay, that’s okay, but 3 bots pursuing a single special to the other side of the map to hack him with melee weapons is terrible.
Bots overpriorize collecting ammo from ammo boxes over fighting. Bots can leave the team when having a single missing ammo while the team is under heavy attack. Also bots should detect ammo boxes from a bit shorter distance to prevent such behavior.
The bots get stuck in certain places on various maps. I reported what I found, some were fixed, others not. It’s impossible to fix every single issue, so bots should have a shorter teleport range to reduce a threat to lose them entirely to specials. Probably I suggested an exact value in my old posts.
One bot should follow the host regardless the number of players. This would be an anti-griefing feature. If there are two players, I think it’s better if both get a bot. It’s hard to tell, because certain places are deadly for bots, like jumping for the second grim on Festering Ground. Bots fail the jump to the way under the bridge and lose health, if the player need to fight down there, they may do multiple circles and die. But it’s acceptable. The players must already know such risks.
Bots should have a damage reduction against area effects like gas, burn. Probably easier than code them to avoid such hazards. You already did this with the poisoning slime on the boss fight arena of Garden of Morr. That killed bots, too.
I just remembered another small issue. Bots should forget the given orders after they teleport.
In the typical situation the bot follows another player who went forward. I command the bot to take something: a healing potion or a book. The bot comes back, but the player continues to advance forward, thus the bot can’t reach the item, it teleports to its master. From this point the command becomes a detriment. The player will never come back, the bot is unable to take the item, but it tries constantly and enters in a backward move-teleport loop. A dropdown between the bot and the item is a bonus. Sooner or later a special will kill it unless I find another item and I can give another command to the bot.
One solution is to erase the order on a teleport, another to give the item to the bot when it teleports. The latter would be better of course.
Edit: Or give the ownership of the bot to the player who gave it a command.