No… point is to find a balance between weapons.
I agree about what you say on plasma guns and bulwarks.
And if you read me:
Bruh, yeah congrats you got a god roll bolter, as stated in the previous posts. That is THE setup and it rolled with a ridiculous blessing that ive only seen once. Knowing from your previous posts you probably rolled a 380 with +25% on both stats as well.
Here is the thing. Are you going to judge on it on the base stat rolls of the weapon or are we including ridiculous blessings in this conversation?
Anything that gets pinning fire is going to be stupid because the bolters main thing is firing mini explosive shells. Shattering impact is also going to be stupid because it applies rending per shot reducing your total shots taken. With both of those comboed of course you are going to kill most things quickly because it’s a stupid hard combo to get, let alone getting it to roll on a good weapon with a good combo of stats.
That’s an additional problem im now going to bring up, are you going to make all your balance decisions around the assumption that everyone else is using perfect roll bolters?
Edit: Tell the truth this is the last post im probably making on this thread since I’m just entirely opposed to the idea of throwing nerfs around because a weapon is overrepresented and just 100% don’t see the problem with the bolter. I don’t feel like there is any more point to me arguing about this.
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I did not even change the perk… but I should…
For pinning fire, it is now a +15%, since the crafting patch.
I don’t show you the one I use with veteran… but… it is something like a 360 with cavalcade +3% and… that’s all.
It is enough efficient.
So I know this has nothing related to blessings.
Tbh it’s not an argument. It’s just you haven’t reached this point yet. But more and more people getting there. Actually decent stats bolter even with rend was a pretty balanced on par with mg12, before last big patch. Arguing about near maxed out weapon is what matters because it affects endgame.
I’m sorry if you already pointed this out, but can you reiterate what you think a proper reduction in effectiveness would look like for the bolter?
I also try to elaborate on my point a bit further. I’ll only talk about vet since zealot bolter is overall considered fine.
Bolter has high DPS, the highest damage on an ammo dump, low mobility, and is long to pull out, requires 2 feat investment to still have almost second slowest reload speed. It’s accurate at long range for the first shot but has the highest kickback (or close to the highest). On bolter even with the reload speed, it’s impossible (it’s unreliable enough to be counted out) to keep Vet ult up after a reload and you give up both grenade feats for it.
Most other weapons don’t need to run reload so they can do either infinite normal or bleed grenades. This allows the player to deal with bulwarks and crushers (stun) and a bleed grenade dump clears all bulwarks/reapers in an 8m radius (and pretty much everything else).
Compared to bolter:
Every weapon is faster to ready.
K12 has a better time dealing with shooters, can deal with elites outside of crusher/bulwark pretty fast, can keep up ult indefinitely (shooter ult), can deal with specials faster at mid and long ranges, and has better ammo economy. +Granandes
K4 I don’t have experience with, but it has comparable performance to K12 when I see other people running it (a bit worse) with way better boss damage (compared to K12).
Braced gives you way more mobility, is far better against shooters (up to long range), can keep up ult indefinitely (shooter ult), can kill specials with comparable speed (up to mid-range), has better ammo economy, and overall better to deal with trash (both faster and way more ammo efficient). It’s also able to kill far away snipers with some ammo investment if required. +Granandes
Laspistol has extreme mobility, is far better against shooters, can keep up ult indefinitely (shooter ult), and has a very fast reload. +Granades
Revolver should be outside of the conversation since it’s a sidearm to complement a heavily melee focused playstyle and it’s pretty much there. (I think it should have a better weak spot multiplier but that’s going off-topic)
Plasma is currently super bad, with horrendous ammo economy (it’s close to or even worse than shotgun and revolver), but at least it can deal with crushers with comparable speed in short, and faster mid-range (requires ogryn ult). It can also shoot through walls and that’s pretty fun to do (killing specials behind walls, doors, and such). You also can’t run grenades with it if you want to have anywhere near acceptable reload speeds.
Shotgun is just bad overall.
Everything else I left out is due to me not feeling informed enough to comment on, not because they don’t have upsides that would make them “balanced”.
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Someone else proposed to reduce the mobility with bolter.
But I disagree with it as I said:
In fact TRUE 2-3 more seconds to reload could do a difference in my opinion.
But, again, I have not the solution. I know that the bolter is too good. But, how to solve this…
Also the vet has a feat that permits to reload instantly… so it could have something to permit it to not suffer totally of such nerf.
I would not say that. I use it since someone made a thread about it.
The problem is not that shotgun is bad, it is that it cannot compete with a bolter. In any situation you encounter, between a bolter and a shotgun, the bolter does better.
Well, the game doesn’t know sidearms… so it is not off topic.
But I would say, revolver is good for zealot, shotgun is more for veteran.
I agree about the weak spot damages. It was something proposed in the thread I opened about it.
Revolver has two problems:
- damages that don’t one shot several enemies that it should in damnation difficulty
- too few ammo (i have already said it before in this thread)
I agree on all that you said here.
I played sometimes with it, but nothing seriously to be able to really speak about plasma gun. But what you describe was my first impression of this weapon. I plan to test it more soon…
Other guns… I agree with what you said.
The only thing I would actually nerf bolter against is Bulwarks, just cuz they’re getting deleted too easily when they are already pretty easy to delete. Seriously, it should have been plasma that’s the primo bulwark deleter.
I guess you could say they delete Crushers too easily as well, but I’m not really concerned with that because literally any adjustment to melee elites to make them harder than they currently are would justify the Bolter.
Against trash bolter is fine, kind of wasteful actually. And no one should be mad about shooting gunners, like you’d have to make a weapon that aims itself and plays the game for you before you can make something too OP against ranged enemies.
2-3 more seconds of reload are something I would find totally acceptable as an adjustment. Probably would increase it more and would make reload speed attribute scale harder (up to at least 50%) to make it more impactful.
I think we are both correct. I think a shotgun isn’t good enough in scenarios where it should shine more.
I’m pretty sure the revolver is designed as a side arm and should be outside of “ranged damage” conversations. It’s super fast to pull out, with high stopping power (stun anything) with a blessing that buffs melee. I think it does what it’s meant to do, but it would still need some adjustments tho.
It’s both super fun and super bad at the same time. If you play high-int prepare to need at least 2-3 times the ammo pickup of what bolter needs. Edit: Just don’t forget you can vent for hp, that’s the only thing that keeps it from being actually unplayable.
The only problem with bolter is that its better than the plasma gun.
I need you lunatics to stop nerfing things that already feel awesome and just make other things cool too.
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holy i aint reading all of this to speak of a gun.
Bolter is good as it, too mutch high ammo consuption for its power.
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Bolter is fine as it is in my opinion, but if there was gonna be any nerf to it. It’d be the ammo count. That’s all. Bolter needs blessings to make it good, without them, the bolter suffers a lot and can’t DPS as much as people think it can. It does have it’s draw backs with reloading and taking the gun out.
Where as the flamer if you get a good base modifier that’s all you really need. Don’t need any blessings and you can just kill and stagger anything and everything.
I do find a kind of silly that revolver and shotgun suffers a lot from their reserve ammo count. Fat Shark does need to buff that IMO.
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That’s terrible and doesn’t even make sense.
What is the player character struggling with that makes sticking a magazine into a hole and then wracking the slide back so difficult? Are they G.I. recruits? Did they just discover square peg can go into a square hole and have to spend an extra minute contemplating the implications?
It would take longer to reload a bolter than it takes Ogryn to reload the heavy stubber at that point.
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Come on now, at least make a real argument.
I agree with him, stop making things dumb in service of “muh balance”. Its a lore heavy PVE game
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I think if you would have read my previous comment you would agree more with me, I think bolter is fine. I’m just saying that (I think) +2 sec of reload wouldn’t ruin the weapon.
I also don’t think you agree with @dannylew8299
I think a change like this would be pretty bad. Currently, bolter is the only weapon that could kill bulwarks effectively, out of maybe 2 (Edit: Ranged) weapons per class that could be considered useful at countering them.
Based on what I’ve read from him before (I think) he wants TTK to be lower across the board so it’s more about that than nerfing the bolter. A thing that should be achieved (I think) with a difficulty 6 added instead of rebalancing current elites, but I do agree with him that the melee threat is currently a bit low.
Plasma should pierce everything until it goes off-map. Shields, walls…everything
Bolter should be blocked by shields, not deleting them.
Make these two changes, nothing else, and see where the meta goes.
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Agree. Bolter feels good – not OP like flamer, mostly due to ammo limitations. You can magdump in a pinch, but you’ll run dry quickly. I think revolver (and shotgun) should be buffed vs nerfing bolter. Suggest doubling revolver’s ammo pool to start with – why can I only carry 57 of these tiny bullets, but 100 giant bolts?
Imo more guns should behave like bolter does wrt shields – maybe that’s a good way to buff shotgun?
i want to run double melee weapons on my zealot XD
The suggestion to give the Bolter an 8 - 10 second reload or more would do less to improve the game but just delay the weapon from doing what it already does too well. Also, visually, it would look pretty silly seeing your character in the first person perspective actively struggle to reload a weapon more than an Ogryn struggles to manipulate a box and ammo belt into their (by 40k standards) pre-historic machine gun.
On to the second part about Bulwarks
Bolters get a distinction as the best Bulwark killing weapon that it doesn’t deserve. There are other weapons in game that in lore should be better (still waiting on that plasma buff). As long as a zealot or veteran is present with a Bolter, Bulwarks require no thought.
Off-topic, an extra difficulty is not ideal. This community is not big enough to justify it. You got me wrong, arbitrarily increasing TTK on everything is not the same as making enemies require better game play and teamwork to take care of (nor have I advocated any ranged enemies or specials be made stronger). Lack of variety means current weapons handle everything kind of the same way.
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