Big Boi needs buff against Berserkers?!

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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Addressing Challenges in Melee Combat Against Multiple Berserkers: A Consideration of Ogryn Tactics

TL;DR:
Problem: not enough melee stagger against multiple berserkers. Proposed solution: increasing melee weapon push attack stagger against berserkers for ogryns, enhancing gameplay.

Melee combat in Darktide often brings forth challenges that require players to adapt their strategies. Today, we will delve into the nuanced mechanics of melee combat in the context of an ogryn facing multiple berserkers. The player’s experience is characterized by the effectiveness of melee stagger, reliance on the ultimate ability, and the need to employ ranged weapons in specific scenarios.

For the sake of argument[1]

Melee Stagger Dynamics:

The first point of consideration is the efficacy of melee stagger when confronting single targets. Melee stagger, in this context, refers to the ability of a melee weapon to interrupt an opponent’s attack animation, creating an opening for the player to counter-attack. Against solitary adversaries, melee stagger proves effective, providing the player with a tactical advantage.

However, the scenario takes a different turn when facing multiple berserkers simultaneously. The second point emphasizes that melee weapon stagger becomes less potent when dealing with a swarm of berserkers. The sheer number of enemies reduces the impact[2] of stagger, making it challenging for the player to control the situation effectively.

Survival Strategies:

In the face of this challenge, I find myself resorting to a combination of things for survival. The reliance on dodges, heavy attacks and the talents “The Best Defense” or “Smash 'Em!”[3] becomes paramount. The player must execute these while constantly hoping for a refill of toughness to 100% to avoid substantial health damage. Simply because I can not find a way to interrupt the berserkers while not switching to the grenade, ranged weapon or ulting them. Unfortunately, complete avoidance of damage is rarely achievable in such intense situations.

Ultimate Ability as a Solution:

The fourth point introduces the idea of using the ogryn’s ultimate ability, Indomitable, as a potential solution to the onslaught of berserkers. While this proves effective, it is contingent on the ability not being on cooldown. The limitation of the 30 second base cooldown[4] restricts the player’s reliance on this, emphasizing the need for alternative approaches.

The Challenges of Pushing:

Pushing, as explored in the fifth point, emerges as a strategy that falls short of expectations when facing multiple berserkers. The limited stagger effect and the immediate resumption of attacks by the berserkers pose a significant challenge. This inadequacy is particularly pronounced in situations involving multiple adversaries, where pushing provides only a temporary reprieve.

Ranged Weapon Tactics:

In response to the shortcomings of melee combat, the sixth point highlights the necessity of resorting to ranged weapons like the Grenadier Gauntlet, Rumbler, or Kickback[5]. While effective, this approach demands the player to adopt a defensive stance, constantly backpedaling and dodging to avoid the enemy swings while shooting and reloading. This deviation from the traditional role of an ogryn raises questions about the intended gameplay experience[6]

Proposed Solution:

The seventh point proposes a potential solution to the challenges faced by ogryns in melee combat against berserkers. Increasing the melee weapon stagger of the push attack specifically against maniacs could empower players to better control the battlefield. This adjustment aims to enhance the ogryn’s ability to disrupt multiple attackers, offering a more engaging and satisfying gameplay experience.

Conclusion:

In conclusion, the challenges faced by ogryns in melee combat against multiple berserkers highlight the complexity of game mechanics and the need for adaptive strategies. The proposed solution of increasing melee weapon push stagger against maniacs seeks to address these challenges and foster a more dynamic and enjoyable gameplay experience. The ongoing discourse within the community plays a vital role in shaping the evolution of game mechanics and ensuring a balance that caters to the preferences and expectations of players. So, let’s talk about this in the comment, I’m looking forward to reading your oppinions ^^

  1. Let’s assume that the ogryn uses any of the Knives, Bully Clubs, the Shovel or Power Maul and the Indomitable Ult. Because in my opinion the Maul and Shield or any of the other two Ults constitute a different playstyle where this issue may or may not arise. Of course you can now make the argument “No build should be able to do everything” but I leave this discussion to the comments. ↩︎

  2. Impact as in affect, change, alter, not stagger strength ↩︎

  3. Replenish 25% Toughness after hitting multiple/a single Enemy with a Heavy melee attack. ↩︎

  4. I know there are character/talent combinations where you can lower this significantly on elite kills. What I’m saying is that when this isn’t possible you’ll just have this on cooldown again for a while and can’t use it ↩︎

  5. I chose these weapons spcificly because out of the ogryn’s ranged weapon arsenal they prove to be very effective at dealing damage AND staggering berserkers ↩︎

  6. Ogryn not being the backbone of the team meaning not taking aggro but actively avoiding it so he can shoot ↩︎

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If you feel that way, you should remember what it’s like to stare them down as a standard humie. The notion of even considering staggering multiple ragers at once in melee is outside of my comprehension. Isn’t the ragers defining characteristic that you can’t stagger them during their chained attacks? Trying to get ahead of their attack chain with a ranged weapon is often a match defining moment, followed closely by when to sidestep and clobber them. You’re proposing making Ogryns even stronger in melee, and I would argue, uniquely suited to fighting ragers and berserkers in addition to being able to man handle crushers, maulers, and monstrosities?

I do agree though, that every recommendation I give and every spec I make revolves around Ragers, so something ought to be done. The only reason people still aren’t constantly whining about them is that gunner and stalker spawn rates are way up, shotgunners too.

3

I appreciate the very obvious amount of effort and thought that went into this.

And while I agree that pushing Ragers more consistently would be great, I really, really don’t want a situation similar to bosses where Ogryns can just perma stagger enemies and kill them themselves, or have the team effortlessly kill them.

Additionally I think it’s important to note that you left out weapon special actions. Both the slap, and the knife and shovel punches can stagger or knock over ragers if timed correctly. This is how you can help make space, although if in a huge mixed horde this isn’t possible.

It is my opinion that Ogryn’s performance, with the parameters you set, is fine. If you see Ragers approaching, you can open fire before they make contact with your team without giving up ground. If you’re able to reduce the amount of enemies around them, you can stagger them effectively with weapon special actions. Lastly, your ult is THE ANSWER to this problem. If your ult is on cooldown when you need it, that is bad cool down management on part of the player. Indomitable is an incredibly powerful ability and is used to safely deal with these important threats, as well as provide space for the team and push forward.

I think Rager groups being a team problem is good and healthy for the game. You need support to deal with them most of the time, and if you have your ult ready you can use it to do it yourself.

Lastly, although I think this is the most debatable point I will make, I think even Ogryn’s occasionally having to fall back to create space is fine. It should not be a common occurrence, but I don’t think they should be able to safely headbutt their way into every situation with melee enemies.

4

I like the formatting and layout of this post, and I don’t inherently disagree with the point. However, I should mention that the Slab Shield right now can easily bowl over ragers like 3+ at a time, unless there’s a big enemy soaking up the attacks in front. The ogryn punches/slaps also seem to be able to knock over 2 or so per action depending on timing and placement.

However, I do agree that pushing seems to be a bit overshadowed stagger-wise by heavy attacks and special attacks. I mostly use it to access the ogryn taunt or to farm stagger for that heavy attack damage buff, or if I need a quicker but weaker stagger. I think that some weapons probably struggle more for stagger than others.

5

I read your whole thing (nice formatting), but i just don’t see how Ogryn is struggling against ragers.

I do find ragers annoying with their long go-go Gadget axe swings, but that’s it.

Ogryn can stagger ragers with any push or special attack (and if it’s not exactly all of them then I have no idea which weapon doesn’t). After that it’s a dps check which I don’t think Ogryn is lacking at all?

Do the other classes handle groups of ragers better than ogryn?

6

Zealot handles groups of Ragers best in melee, have none of you ever picked heavy sword? FoTF can kill 2 in one swing, lol. 2 maulers as well. They get completely gooned by the weapon if you throw stagger power nodes on, or just use specials.

But Ogryn is far from weak against these guys. Clubs stagger them with headshots, all attacks. Most things as bigman can be solved with the application of more bonk.

7

I feel like I bully ragers to death on my ogryn already tbh. Shield to the doom, shield back hand across the face; land headshots; thats all she wrote.

Ogryn has the easiest time in melee with these targets hands down.

8

personally, on a difficulty scale, ragers don’t rank that high, if i’m running kickback and shield.

sure groups can take a good chunk of your health when cornered, but the only thing they got going for them is their rushdown damage straight towards you.

and even if there’s clunky crap like trappers netting through pillars and crusher telepraphing yet tracking you, without all that it would take a lot of spice out of the game.

game has a few issues left but enemies and their intended roles got a pretty solid and rewarding rock paper scissors

9

I think the point of ragers is precisley to make you be a bit more creative than just mindless attack spam.

10

I mean, everyone struggles with multiple ragers in melee if they don’t have space to dodge away. It’s not really unique to Ogryn. Regardless of class, you’re going to have to be extremely careful taking on 3+ ragers using only melee, you’ll probably want to use either your ranged, blitz, or Ult.

11

You can stagger them out. Tact Axe and Heavy Sword special attack staggers them out of the combo and momentarily stuns them. Combat Axe special attack will interrupt the combo. High Impact weapons can do it with regular attacks with enough hits.

You can make the Dagger special stop it, but you need some combination of Heavy and Special attacks to the head, Hammer of Faith, and Grevious Wounds Talent on Zealot.

Zealot’s charge will stagger them out and stun for a bit. Vet and Psyker shout will knock them down regardless of state.

Fun fact: Tact axe special will instant-stagger everything short of bosses. You can stop a charging mutie by special attacking its head. If you have Decimator on a Tact Axe, you can turn a Bulwark by spamming lights at the shield.

12

Ahh this is very good to know. The heavy sword is actually extremely effective against ragers, frighteningly effective. Was just getting around to experimenting with the special.

13

Great post but you fail to mention one key method to avoiding damage from a berserker when they are attacking.

Blocking.

The mechanic presented by Berserkers’ is to avoid engaging in melee with them. On launch, Ogryns could infinitely stun berserkers with a slap. I’m glad they are a threat now.

Solution when you see a group of berserkers (flak/unarmored)

  1. Charge To knock down (ult)
  2. shoot to stagger. (I use ripper)
  3. rock to one-shot (1 free zerker kill every 60 sec)
  4. kite

Remember that berserkers never spawn from behind, they come from pulls, they will always be in front.

Weakness vs zerker
Stuck in melee vs multiple zerkers while charge is on cd/separated from team, like you mentioned above . The melee slap used to infinite stagger them which was funny, but it also staggers everything and I can see why it was nerfed.

Solution to weakness
Find your stagger heavy attack and use it. For the bully club its the second heavy charge (cleave). This will typically knock them down or at least cause a stagger.

Fun solution
Bring back the stagger slap with a diminish effect if used repeatedly.
For example: 1st slap has a full stun, 2nd slap on same target staggers half as long, 3rd no effect.

Conclusion
The problem presented by zerkers is fun, their mechanic is NOT to engage in melee with them, but I feel there are plenty of ways to take care of them.

agree.

yes.

Psyker perma stun lightning fingers is absurdly broken
Veteran can 1-2 shot ragers.

14

+1 on Slab Shield, or any Ogryn blunt weapon heavy attack for that matter. It bullies just about everything, especially berserkers.

In fact, I’ve had patrols I’ve pulled that had a mix of crushes, berserkers and maulers and easily locked them all down with the Slab Shield heavy chain attack.

15

Not since Patch 13. They can show up from behind as part of mixed hordes now. It may be pulled behaviour based on hordes alerting patrols nearby, but part of the alerted behaviour is at a certain distance they’ll run into a spawn door and teleport closer to and usually behind you. And because half the patrols and ambients are practically silent, for all intents and purposes, they’re spawning behind you.

16

Good to know! Thanks

17

Honestly, the Slab Shield kinda overshadows a lot of other ogryn weapons for me right now except for carapace damage. The horde clear, huge stagger, and extra survivability are all peak