Behind Enemy Lines Penance (Unusally Strict Requirements?)

[TheStoryMaker]

I’m a Zealot Main, but I tend not to do Infiltrator builds, so I’m looking for feedback from people who DO like Infiltrator Zealots.

As the devs clearly intended with the Path of Redemption patch, I’ve started trying out new styles of play in hopes of gaining more of of those sweet, sweet Penance points. However, I noticed that the “Behind Enemy Lines” Penance seems unusually strict in its requirements. Most of the other new build-specific Penances just require things like “travel a certain distance with teammates while under the effect of this Aura,” “heal a certain amount of corruption,” and other things which tend to happen naturally while playing the game - especially for the Aura Penances.

“Behind Enemy Lines” is atypical for requiring three layers of requirements. First, you need to not be in Coherency and be under the effect of Loner (difficult if you have a good team and are playing smart, but still makes sense; this is the Loner-specific Penance, after all). Then, you need to kill enemies with Backstab, specifically. But not just any enemies; ranged enemies - again, specifically.

This Penance also “feels” strange because it seems to require you have an Ability that is not part of the Penance. If you are out of Coherency and an enemy sees you, it seems very difficult to get a Backstab kill, unless you also have Shroudfield.

All in all, these three layers of requirements - plus this all-but stated hidden fourth - seems like an odd departure from the overall game-design of the new Penances.

I’ll get the Penance eventually, but I’m curious to hear other people’s thoughts.

[Ol_Jakal]

what’re you even using loner for? most of the talent specific penances are “please use the skill like this” guides instead of an attempt to reward you for your “skills”. looks at smoke grenades, using them point blank is mostly futile, but that’s the penance. they’re much better as LOS blockers for ranged issues to allow your team to close or regroup than loitering in the area pretending you’re a homicidal edgelord elf stabbing everyone.

[darth.crevette]

Yeah, people have been throwing their smoke grenades inside large hordes these days, like that will help in any way…

I’m also guilty though, I’ve been purposefully playing like crap with my ogryn to complete some penances (throwing my frag bomb into a large horde, or using my taunt when there are 3 or 4 elites in range even if that doesn’t help the team at all - and then being on cooldown when it could have been useful).

[MarxistDictator]

well the smoke penance is for ‘engulfing enemies’ which as far as I could tell meant hitting them with the explosion or having them stand in it. ie everything smoke grenades still aren’t useful at (unless you can lob one into a patrol of gunners before they split up). though when you are in wave of dogs you can stand in the smoke and the dogs will never attack, along with trapper and flamers, which is their main value outside shooters and something people are still not aware of.

[TrueZealot]

@TheStoryMaker

First, you need to not be in Coherency and be under the effect of Loner (difficult if you have a good team and are playing smart, but still makes sense; this is the Loner-specific Penance, after all)

Actually, a good team finds it easy to do the opposite ; anyone and everyone will just group and run through a map.

@TheStoryMaker

Then, you need to kill enemies with Backstab, specifically. But not just any enemies; ranged enemies - again, specifically.

thats because you get the best value by killing the highest value target found furthest away. getting pinned into a corner is likely because someone isnt killing the specials

@TheStoryMaker

This Penance also “feels” strange because it seems to require you have an Ability that is not part of the Penance. If you are out of Coherency and an enemy sees you, it seems very difficult to get a Backstab kill, unless you also have Shroudfield.

thats because you feel like every good team needs to group up, so being forced to run solo in a team game feels weird ; also you can bait your teammates for backstab kills so you dont even have to run solo

@TheStoryMaker

If you are out of Coherency and an enemy sees you, it seems very difficult to get a Backstab kill, unless you also have Shroudfield.

and if you have shroudfield, then you might as well have loner, and if you have these things, then you might as well be back stabbing every idle high-value target alone, behind enemy lines, while the rest of the team clears things as usual and takes enemy aggro away from you everytime u go invis

@TheStoryMaker

All in all, these three layers of requirements - plus this all-but stated hidden fourth - seems like an odd departure from the overall game-design of the new Penances.

all in all, they jus made the penance more descriptive/easier to achieve

[TheStoryMaker]

I’ll admit, I’m a bit confused by some of these points.

@TrueZealot

Actually, a good team finds it easy to do the opposite ; anyone and everyone will just group and run through a map.

… Yes? If I am understanding you correctly, I believe we are not just in agreement; this was actually my point. “Anyone and everyone” tends to group up and run through a map, making it difficult to stay OUT of Coherency. Especially because it is risky to do so; Trappers in particular can be deadly to an unlucky person running solo - but it’s also bad news if such a person runs into Dogs, happens to round the corner into a pack of Elites, etc. Many teammates in fact know this and will helpfully try to catch up to you, so there’s at least two people running in a group at all times, to avoid things going south fast. Loner seems to be most useful as an ace in your pocket in situations where you DO end up getting isolated; trying to move away from your team can be both very dangerous AND actually be very difficult.

@TrueZealot

thats because you get the best value by killing the highest value target found furthest away. getting pinned into a corner is likely because someone isnt killing the specials

I’m also confused about this point. The Penance isn’t for killing Specials; it’s for killing Ranged enemies. But, also, this is almost a distraction from my point; while it may be valuable to have someone going around and assassinating enemies, making the Penance key specifically off of ranged enemies is yet another prerequisite in a Penance that already seems to have atypically strict requirements. As other people have pointed out in this post, many of the other new Penances don’t require you be even be using the ability optimally; just that you be using it consistently.

@TrueZealot

also you can bait your teammates for backstab kills so you dont even have to run solo

I’m afraid I’m especially confused on this point. You NEED to run solo for the Penance. The requirements are: killing ranged enemies, with Backstab, while being outside of Coherency, while under the effect of Loner. Using your teammates for bait IS theoretically possible … but very hard to do. You can’t simply dance around an enemy while it’s melee-attacking a teammate to stab it in the back; you need to be outside of Coherency. If you are engaging in a ranged fire-fight, and if all your teammates are holding still and not advancing to the point where there’s even one person in Coherency with you, and if you are able to circle around the ranged enemies without them seeing you and turning to face you, then you might be able to use your teammates as bait … But this seems like such an edge-case that it still feels like a major departure from the design philosophy of the other Penances.

@TrueZealot

if you have shroudfield, then you might as well have loner

This one, I do understand! The two abilities really do seem like they were built to be Synergistic … However, here I’m afraid I simply disagree. Loner and Shroudfield are separate abilities. With the way the Talent tree is set up, it is entirely possible to have a build with one and not the other. Most of the new Penances seem to tacitly acknowledge this; to my knowledge, there are no other class-specific Penances that all-but require you have two separate abilities at the same time to get significant Penance progress. Which makes “Behind Enemy Lines,” again, seem like a significant departure from design philosophy.

@TrueZealot

all in all, they jus made the penance more descriptive/easier to achieve

I’m sorry; maybe my reading comprehension isn’t as great as I’d like to think. But I simply do not see why all this makes the Penance easier to achieve. It all seems to be adding up to a Penance that is not just difficult, but unusually difficult for the type of Penance it is supposed to be.

The “unusual” part is honestly the thing that stands out most to me. I’m fine with difficult to achieve Penances … But it feels strange that this one particular build - Loner Zealot - should have SUCH restrictive requirements when they appear to be moving away from that, overall, in their design philosophy for the build-specific Penances.

[Kambrin]

That’s pretty much what you’re supposed to be doing when you pick loner. I don’t think it’s too specific or anything. Why else would you have loner if not to move away from your team into ranged encampments and killing them while they’re in disarray?
The real offensive penances are stuff like the smoke grenade one (encourages you to throw it AT enemies instead of using it in more effective ways) and smite (you need like 5000 enemies killed while they’re smited, so it basically tells you “smite hordes and annoy your team”). There’s probably more. These ones show incredible disconnect between what the devs think about the abilities and how they’re actually used to good effect.

[TrueZealot]

@TheStoryMaker

making it difficult to stay OUT of Coherency.

it isnt tho, only you have to stay out of coherency

@TheStoryMaker

The Penance isn’t for killing Specials; it’s for killing Ranged enemies. But, also, this is almost a distraction from my point; while it may be valuable to have someone going around and assassinating enemies, making the Penance key specifically off of ranged enemies is yet another prerequisite

technically flamers are considered ranged enemies, but they likely wanted ranged kills because they wanted the penance being acquired in the enemy backline of a fight

@TheStoryMaker

But this seems like such an edge-case that it still feels like a major departure from the design philosophy of the other Penances.

ye ig u cant backstab kill with loner while teammates are close, but ig thats why they wanted ranged kills. Question tho is ; what specific design philosophy does this penance disregard in comparison to other penances?

@TrueZealot

if you have shroudfield, then you might as well have loner

this is actually partly a joke to invis/stealth users

@TheStoryMaker

it feels strange that this one particular build - Loner Zealot - should have SUCH restrictive requirements when they appear to be moving away from that, overall, in their design philosophy for the build-specific Penances.

ig we should jus be happy that they arent promoting the playstyle

[ZoroDaOtter]

I hate doing this penace. You either have to:

A) Run ahead and backstab a single ranged enemy, then stagger and spam dodges on the other ranged enemies you’ve aggroed and hope you can get behind them.

B) Run ahead and aggro all the ranged shooters, wait for the rest of the team to come in range, then stealth to aggro them on your team instead so you can backstab.

If only FS didn’t decease the number of gunner spawns a few patches back…

A lot of the penaces don’t feel well thought out. Vet ones make them crab walk everywhere and spam smoke into pox hordes, Ogyrn just grabs an Achyls and hold down left click regardless if there’s enemies or not.

[GtCM]

In maybe 15 to 20 auric quick plays with this build ive only got to 100/200 (without deliberately trying), so it doesn’t quite fit my play style (less than 10 progress per gme). Most other penances have only taken a few games to complete. If im running into blobs of ranged I want to be visible to force them into melee then slice them up, so im fighting them face on. I save infiltrate to either get toughness back on demand or reposition if im getting overwhelmed. Once the ranged blob are forced into melee my team usually follows up anyway so im back in coherancy for the slicing part.

Also if theres another zealot they will be up in the melee with me

[Poompaxhotl]

Totally agree! Not only it’s restrictive, it’s also designed in a weird way. I think, so don’t quote me on that, that if a ranged enemy takes out his melee, he stops being ranged. And if you’re alone next to a bunch of ranged dregs or scavs they will take out their melee weapons. So the best tactic i found is to run in a shroudfield, drop a stun grenade and then kill them. Which is a lot of steps compared to Ogryn’s «throw a rock into someone’s face».

[CobaltNinja]

@Poompaxhotl

I think, so don’t quote me on that, that if a ranged enemy takes out his melee, he stops being ranged.

This is false. If an enemy has a ranged option at all, they are considered ranged - even trash mobs who whip out shovels and never shoot once will be considered ranged.

Removing the backstab kill requirement would solve a lot of the frustrations I have with this talent.

[Phracatti]

You can also just sprint towards the pea shooters, silde, 180 and backstab during slide, it counts.

Easiest way to grab is to solocamp one of the spawnpoint/door in an event.

Also, use the mk6, you can dispatch 3 at a time, mk3 is for boomers, not cool.

[Poompaxhotl]

I specifically asked not to quote me on that!

I guess i just got really unlucky with backstabs on those dregs with shovels.

[darth.crevette]

Just a quick question while we’re on the subject, are trappers and bombers considered “ranged”?
Trappers I’d assume so (the webgun is a ranged weapon), but not so sure about bombers.

[CobaltNinja]

They should be, though I don’t know for certain.