Balance; Some feedback on weapons; Train Mission

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
41

I gotta agree that Rippers aren’t really impressive.

Grenade Gauntlet - it’s just OK, don’t really use it tho, so don’t have much of the Opinion

Stubbers - the problem is with the class, not the weapon really, Ogryn is just not suited to gun things down like Veteran, it’s pretty much like: “I pull this gun out to kill Specials and Bosses”
And the same goes to any other Ogryn weapon(Well, not only Ogryn)

They can be used to great results only if all of your team gives all the ammo to you, this is why some Builds that people post about Ranged Ogryn are getting ridiculous results, they just have their friends to give them the majority of the ammo.

Shield - It’s actually one of the Best Ogryn weapons, it has great Push, great Heavy that is easy to cancel over and over again, and the damage is good, special is pretty situational but I see that there is some potential for greatness. The only weakness is it’s damage against Armoured enemies, and like all Ogryn melee weapons - Boss damage is mid

Do not use light attacks on the weapon they are garbage, and avoid using second Heavy it’s only good for crowd control and bleed. Use mostly the first Heavy that One-Shots like 7 dudes at once(once I get home I will update the info).

Yes, it is better because of the Damage immunity or something like that, but other than that, I would never want that Targeted charge on my Ogryn, this snapping and teleporting with high ping on Zealot’s Ult is killing me

It is pretty bad, yes, Ogryn already has a lot of Suppression, more of it wouldn’t make much of the difference, but I mean, it’s a passive node.

WHAT? What are you talking about? He always had 2 25Toughness nodes, and a couple of 15Toughness nodes, correct me if I am wrong on “2” 25Toughness nodes.

I will say that, I am pretty skilled as Ogryn and do not see the same issues some others might see, like: The guy is slow and dodge is bad; He’s not Tanky enough; Can’t counter shooters; Damage is low
So take my opinion as pretty unpopular

Also, where is @gpkgpk ? I expected to see them here as it is the Ogryn thing actually.

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42

Ripper 5 is/was great, but took a huge swig of the nerf juice jug due to upped stagger thresholds. Bayoneting mobs to apply brittle debuffs and not staggering them is huge unintended negative change.
GGauntlet needs some lots of love for sure, if only doubling the baffling range limit and probably some ammo.
Rumbler could use some Kicback level ammo maybe or a bit of blessing tweak.
E.g. The new Shrapnel bleed blessing is only on close range BUT it’s not close_range 8m 12.5m, it’s close_radius, the range of explosion epicentre (inner blast) which is rather small even if boosted, getting consistent targeted bleeds off non-adhesives (bouncy) seems tricky. Shattering Impact could be a lot more useful to the team if it worked like Shrapnel.

Just give it a wee bit more ammo to make up for ammo aura nerf? Do explosion staggers so with the bouncing you’re not likely to bleed what you want unless adhesive.

The stubbers, outside of gunlugger Achlys+fire feel rather bad overall in a post #13 world.

What worries me big-picture is heavy-handed adjustments to things like the staggers, without considering how it affects the ogryn more severely as that is part of his bullying identity. Breaking staggers on ogryn melee and special attacks is a bigger deal here than for other archetypes, and severely drive-by nerfs many weapons . Ogryn should maybe have gotten some internal global buffs to compensate?

Furthermore it’s been many updates with some core ogryn (very?) light nerfs, but pretty much only ogryn. FNP, Staggers++(global), Bleed DR, CDR, +25 tuf 10% TDR node swapped with suppression.
Was the ogryn too tanky? IDK, maybe, but then other global mechanics changed in a vacuum so maybe some of the tweaks weren’t as needed?
Also, maybe stop listening to tester feedback some, pause for a few minutes and look at big picture and current state.

The trend is a bit concerning given FS’s track record of overbuff/overnerf where things remain static for very long periods of time.

TLDR: Ogryn feels like a victim of many drive-bys. Where ogryn duelling sword!

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43

Boss slap

Gone, but not forgotten :broken_heart:

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44

It was +10% TDR that was swapped with suppression

Other than that, good stuff :+1:

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45

Stubbers are fun but half the time your firing blind and cant see a damn thing, maybe ive got my graphics settings up too high i dunno

46

I could very much live with some very nuanced nerfs to weapons, such as a slight nerf to cleave for revolver, a slight nerf to cleave for uncharged plasma shots, a slight nerf to carapace DMG on DS, etc. From there you could see how perception changes.

However, two issues that make me hesitant with nerfs, the prime example being the bolter:

  • the frequency of nerfs is very low. So if fatshark misses the mark, we are left with an underperforming weapon for a long time
  • there is a reasonable risk of overnerfing. My faith in nuanced changes is low.

Generally, the balance is in a relatively good spot. I say this because:

  • less than 1% of the players in my pub matches can make an op weapon look actually op
  • the “underperforming” weapons are not that far behind. Some anecdotal evidence: the other day I was leveling up the heavy sword on zealot. My team mates were dead, I was out of ammo and I was pushed into a corner by a mixed horde consisting of unarmoured, ragers, crusher, a chaos spawn. Boy was I surprised when the sword obliterated that mixed horde with no room for kiting.
47

You don’t need to see, you just walk into enemy while hipfiring.

48

The main point of heavy stubber gun ogryn is the ability to fire essentially constantly, without reloading(by the time you run out of ammo with +5% crit and charmed reload, ult can be off cd depending on how many elites/specials you killed). Vet can’t do that; not anymore.
When you hear boss music you can pull out stubber to quickly clear out specials/elites without losing dps on boss(in fact, pre-building blazeaway can be even better), where as people using boltgun will have to suffer a long reload if they didn’t stack reload speed.

Vet’s “shoot forever” gun is recon las and those tend to have significantly less suppression/stagger/penetration. And obviously they still need to be reloaded.

I only play gun ogryn in auric and it’s fine. Often there will be a group of 5-10 elites(most being crushers) and the rending on ult makes it work. More elites/specials means more of that “4%” cooldown on kill from anyone on team.

The trick is to use cleaver and run ahead to grab the ammo(mk4 so it doesn’t suck too much against carapace).

The balance issue of heavy stubbers is between the marks, krourk (the middle ground one) is just worthless since the buff to achlys(lolwtf it’s actually somewhat accurate in first few shot).

Guns are generally not very useful in this game because if you have time to swap to gun then aim and shoot, you probably could have spammed slide and started melee for free(or if the enemy is too far away, that’s not what you would use these less-accurate guns for). Also because you only get one gun(results in braindead fatshark balancing where stub revolver has to do more dmg than boltguns), not like most other shooters that lets you take a sidearm to cover some of the shortcomings of primary.

49

Krourk stubber and a bunch of other ogryn weapons sit mystifyingly off the buff radar. Achlys stubber is basically an autogun and not a stubber nowadays. Its accurate, has no delay before firing, flips the brace like a rippergun and isn’t forced to fire a burst whenever you M1 so its ammo economy goes even farther. You get like 336 ammo back from a large bag with +25% reserves, enough to massacre like 50 elites a few monstrous specials bosses and get several ults back. The other ones stack pretty bad, Gorgonum isn’t that bad but your moving speed when shooting is garbage, you basically can’t touch the brace and it actually suffers from ammo. Not as bad as Krourk (which hits most enemy types as hard as Achlys so it has no hope whatsoever) but its still real.

Ripperguns I don’t even understand why a magazine was removed from Mk2 and Mk6 - when the game came out, Mk5 had less ammo reserves because it is obviously way more versatile than any weapon in ogryn’s kit. They should honestly give those things 1.5x more magazines in reserves…and another pellet confirming with Mk6 at distance, that tiny buff would only make it 60% as good per shot as the Mk5. Also if they bumped the magazine size of these 2 variants a bit there’d be less advantage for Mk5.

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50

The entire game hinges on balance in PVE, the game is its balance , leave things too strong it becomes simplistic then trivial then pointless.

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51

Those are not as big an issue as I expected, TIL lucky bullet trigger will let you shoot off the entire left click burst for free. mk5 using just left click lasts surprisingly long(obviously the issue is keeping 200% ult cooldown up unlike with heavy stubber).

The only serious issue is the rate of fire while braced(and it probably doesn’t refund the whole burst on lucky bullet); the guns do okay damage on left click but braced mode shoots at lower rate of fire, it needs to shoot as fast as it can burst.

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TBH I’ve never used the bayonet on ripper much besides the ole’ can opener on crushers. I tend to believe @MarxistDictator and I think @gpkgpk also said it that the lack of reliable stagger on it now is a real issue.

Also TBC I’m not categorically against some intelligently targeted buffs for aspects of Ogryn’s ranged kit, I just don’t like setting top weapons as a goal post or OP’s general approach/lack of insight into these weapons shown in their post.

Regarding ranged weapon melee attacks in general I think FS has made moves in the right direction but are still probably overly conservative in letting their melee functions be good options. I think for instance in you’re gonna give GG full melee combos and even have that overwrite the ability to hipfire it should function decently as a melee weapon. I could write an whole essay on the ways the explosive punch is disappointing and lacking meaningful ways to scale it (it benefits from shockingly few bonuses), despite still thinking the weapon overall is pretty respectable and works well with melee Ogryn’s gameplan. It’s mostly just been power crept but to me the big issue is not its viability but the tacked on features you can’t really do much with.

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53

It goes through bulwark shield and procs “soft them up” with the initial melee bit + counts as heavy for bleed stacks, that’s something.
Now if it actually works with blaze away, shattering impact(have light melee apply stacks), and can be chained freely from heavy2(which seems to have near identical animation), that would be fairly decent. That and the “secret” heavy horizontal sweep should be another heavy 2, so it can be a starter and chain into a single target antiarmor combo.

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54

I mean yeah I’m not saying it doesn’t work with anything, but from memory of my meat grinder testing it gets neither ranged nor melee damage bonuses, and shockingly few talents boost its actual damage. I believe for PBB the main thing it actually did get boosted by was the close range damage when that was its own sub node. Haven’t tested again since that was integrated into the base skill.

I’m also still just kind of miffed they reworked pinpointing to be a shooting blessing rather than the thrust for explosive punch it always should have been. I guess there’s explosive offering now but having to use it first to then get a small power boost on a follow up is just… blech. Having such a fun move with so little way to effectively build into it feels like such a waste.

55

They’re terrfied they’d get Yelp bombed by the same scrubs who cried a deluge for the very much needed Helldivers nerfs

56

I’d like to see BLO keystone finally remade into something more tangible that doesn’t remind me that I shouldn’t play a lottery.
For example:
Base: +5% fire rate and -10% spread for every 10% of magazine spent during continuous fire. Stacks 5 times.
Upgrade: +5% not consumming ammo for each stack.
I don’t like that keystones effect has low chance to trigger. It’s hard to get rid of feeling of why I pick it when it does not work.

The grenadier gauntlet needs better and more responsive moveset to make it usable in melee combat. The third strikedown after two relentless lights isn’t needed or should be another cc attack and switching between aiming and melee should be faster.

Krourk and Gorgonum stubbers are so inaccurate that hitting a target more than 10 meters away should be awarded a medal. Achlys and Krourk only effective against trash enemies who aren’t a threat for ogryn, and maniacs, where almost all dangerous enemies have armor (crits does x3 damage to carapace, but it requires significant talent point investment and damage still not impressive).
In addition to recoil adjustments, I would give a lot more ammo to the light and medium ones to make less pity to spend ammo on trash, and for the heavy one I would increase the damage to carapace armor. And the ability to pierce non-ogryn elites would be welcomed

Bunch of blessings that give +100% damage for nothing definitely deserves nerf

57

I think Ogryn’s sustain off heavy attacks should keep him from having a suitably all performing weapon like the Hellbore. If they were to give it a moveset or damage, they’d have to remove Can Opener blessing or nerf it to garbage. I love it for giving me rending while using a knife.

But yeah we will repeat our new chant of Ogryn being absolutely forgotten about with new stagger thersholds. When I can do stuff with a shovel about as easily as I can with a club something is off because the only actual benefit to the club is stagger power in game…or you can just use the new pickaxes, which clearly had new elite breakpoints for stagger in mind. But you don’t need it so much because they die in like 1-2 hits instead of the extended dance of bullying the fun ogryn weapons need. Controlling enemies is the entire game plan.

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58

I thought the actual benefit was microgambling with haymaker.

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59

nah haymaker is pretty bad, the only enemy its worth it on is mutie…mauler and ragers are still easily handled by the club’s stagger, so you or your team can wipe them out just as fast as they show up in the middle of hordes. skullcrusher and the means to provide skullcrusher on like almost every hit is the only thing redeeming the lousy hit damage here.

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60

It’s not about being good or bad, some people might just be addicted to rng-based mechanics. (like the shills who tell you the previous rng gear progression is fine/good, except they’re unpaid and genuinely enjoy bad rng)

I thought it was kinda fun to build a 60dmg club dedicated to haymaker gambling. (even though going from 60 to 80% is only about 6% dmg)