Bad rng does not retain players

It only drives them away, since the core game is good enough, why not remove the rng as much as reasonably possible, so they can truly have fun experimenting with different builds?


I’m a player who gets bored when immediately given everything a game has to offer.
Being able to earn rewards and get excited about upgrades when I find them is what makes me want to play, don’t think your Playstyle is representative of everyone.
The game needs to find a balance that works for as many people as possible.
RNG with good chances after a reasonable amount of effort should be the goal.

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Agreed. My opinion is that the current system still skews way harder in the RNG direction than the effort direction.


That would require blessings and talents to be in position to offer larger variety in terms of damnation builds. Atm this is work in progress. Also sadly Fatshark game designers, despite all they said before Darktide release, are still strong believers of the casino gameplay loop.


I agree.
But I am mostly here for content not equipment at this point. No new content for how long I wonder?

Sure, but lets says everyone’s goal is to get “perfect” weapons eventually right? No one is saying “immediately”. How many hours should it take to get a PERFECT 380 weapon with specific tier 4 perks and blessings? 15 hours? 100 hours? I think giving an actual number, per weapon, helps really drive the point here. Because, and especially with curios, it would take thousands of hours to achieve this for one weapon potentially. Is that fair? Is that fun?

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I think the moment I get “perfect” weapons is, to me, the moment I have officially completed the game, because that means that there is absolutely nothing more to achieve our work towards, short of new classes being released or a raised definition of what “perfect” is.
I’m playing heresy with purple equipment and am having fun discovering new things as I go, there’s no rush to get it over with.

Sure, I can understand that… but just in terms of “popular” demand Vermintide 2 was maintaining higher player count than Darktide. Deep Rock Galactic lots of people play despite no weapon chases. Trying out and experimenting builds can do it for a lot of people.

But that’s the thing, I think you have two camps. The “builders” and the “grinders”. Both are vocal. Based on a poll on the forums there is 3 times more “builders” than “grinders” (small pool size though).

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How is 400 hours a rush? Sure, I’m enjoying the gameplay but the itemisation is so random, you can’t with a straight face say that you are ever progressing towards anything.

The gameplay is good enough that you can still find a lot to do even with perfect weapons, like trying new builds (which is admittedly currently severely limited by the lack of classes and lacklustre talent trees).


I’m at 70 hours :sweat_smile:
I think the combination of being able to pick up cheap white weapons of your choosing until you get the stat rolls you want combined with an increase in crafting materials and being able to change blessings goes a long way towards giving builders tools to work with without just dumping it at their feet.
We’ll see how it goes, I think it has potential now, it’s the right direction at any rate, they just have to keep going.

The issue is trying combinations of blessings and perks. Pretty much impossible to do with any degree of certitude for weapons like force sword that have 13 blessings. Break points to test are straight up impossible.

The issue is since some people can get god rolled items you have to balance around them. And that will make the game too easy or too hard, and both are bad.

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In addition, when we talk about perfect set of equipment, let’s not forget that it is 2 weapons and 3 curios for 1 build for 1 character.

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I would be fine if they kept the RNG in the stats but give us possibility to roll just the perks.
Make one perk free to roll ( or better pay determinate amount to get what you want ), the second increase of crafting material at every roll, with a higher the price the higher the chance to get a t4 perk.
Keep one blessings locked the other can be swapped, but give us the chance to upgrade it.
You sacrifice one weapon with the same blessing of lower tier to upgrade the locked blessing to the next.
This way you still have lot of RNG, still a lot of grinding, but you are working towards a goal.
It’s more engaging and rewarding.
What we got is slot machines.

Here’s the BIG question I’d like to know.

“How long should it ideally take to get any one specific item crafted/unlocked the way you want it to be?”

Let’s say for discussion purposes, we think it should take about 10 hours of game time to get an ideal weapon. With 67 weapons, we’re talking 670 hours of game time to level up all the items, and we’re not even talking about having duplicate items built a different way.

Now, fundamentally there are two ways to target a 10-hour per item goal: an RNG based way to achieve this and a deterministic way to achieve this.

The deterministic way would be, like VT2’s athanor system, having something that on average would require you to collect resources for 10 hours, and then you’ll be able to fully upgrade/unlock that ONE item you’re working towards.

The RNG based way is to say “statistically” that it will take on average 10-hours to randomly get the things you need to be able to build/unlock the item you are looking for.

The key difference is that in the deterministic way, your progress towards your goal is predictable. Put in X-hours, make Y-progress. But in the RNG way, there is a great deal of variance. Some people might randomly get what they want after 1 hour. Others could spend hundreds of hours and still never get it.

In my mind, the argument here isn’t that most people want to just have everything unlocked, but rather they want to feel like they are making predictable progress towards a goal they have in mind. There would still be a grind and a need to play for many many hundreds of hours to unlock everything, but you know that your playtime is always giving you tangible, predictable progress. With the RNG-heavy approach, most of the time your are quite literally wasting your time by throwing away resources on things that isn’t helping you get to your goal. That’s the difference.

So for everyone, regardless of whether you like the grind or the RNG-slot machine or whatever other ideas, how much time do you think is reasonable to spend on average in order to get a specific item you’d want (this is assuming after you hit level 30)?

For me, I’d say about 5-6 hours would be ideal. That’s playing missions for 1-2 hours for 3 nights a week. So each week, I’d have a new shiny toy to experiment with the following week as I pursue the next goal. Across all the characters and items that’s going to be 300+ hours easily.


Sounds reasonable, they would, however, have to make each and every weapon actually worth using on every character though, instead of the 1-2 meta choices per character we currently have :sweat_smile:

Of course - balance should be an continuous endeavor to keep things fresh and give the most amount of interesting builds as possible.

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And is also why high RNG sucks if constant balance patching, which should happen, makes a long sought after weapon no longer functional. Even more frustrating if you threw away the weapon that is now suddenly good with it’s combinations.


I would argue that the player should have 90% of the gear maxed after maximum of 500 hours and at least 25% after 200. And that’s for all characters. If we are talking 10 selected weapons per character + 5 curios, 150 hours for 90% of that, 200 hours for guaranteed.

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