Atharti's Delight is a tiny bit BROKEN (Bleed Talent)


Your guess is as good as mine.

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I know why it was flagged as overly promotional. Kitten doesnt like my opinion so he flagged my video as overly promotional even though it primarily serves to:

  1. Provide in depth numbers on the new talent
  2. The video provided is only there to act as evidence

I suppose that’s what I get for being new to the community and actually doing the work to test, report numbers and provide evidence in the Feedback segment of this forum.

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You generally don’t get posts hidden by a single member flagging the post. Not to mention kitten has been here for a VERY long time, so I highly doubt he would just silence disagreement that way nor has he in the past.

Anyway maybe @FatsharkJulia or someone else from fatshark could sort this out since its clearly not breaking anything.

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100%. @ArrynChaos showed a willingness to provide more evidence anyway, so I don’t mind.

I can’t even begin to assume their reasoning, since the only opposition in this thread is from me, and that’s specifically about the quality of evidence. Just a straight up unwillingness to engage in discussion?

The evidence so far is a bit misleading though.

Nah lots of people have done that in the past on more controversial topics than this and not been flagged. This is an odd outlier and I have no idea why it’s happened or who would have flagged it. Guarantee it’s not @Kitten. Most probably a handful of salty Elf mains who are too cowardly to actually engage in discussion.

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The ‘system’ considered the posts to be spam as the same video link had been posted a couple of times, so it’s purely an automated mistake, nothing personal!

image

Lev then restored the posts by rejecting system’s elaborate claims.

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Thanks for the quick clarification Julia, you’re a gem.

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Apologies for blaming you, Apparently it was the fact i linked it a second time in a reply to you. I am uploading a video now showcasing against cata stormvermin (please do keep in mind I don’t have winds of magic) so I have to cheat my own version of Cataclysm by giving them damage reduction. The end result is still the same. Harder actually since I will generate less temp hp from enemies that are as hard as cata enemies (since they have the same health as Legend) And I thgink their stagger is affected as well.

I gave Skarrik from Into the Nest 90% damage reduction and I can no longer stagger him to the ground. with my Grail Knight Double Ulti.

The second part of the video showcases its horde clearing potential. I disable everything except hordes. Give all horde minions 50% damage reduction (effectively giving them double the health of Legend, which is higher than Cataclysm 1) and I mostly solo that with the exception of getting my bardin bot to take some aggro from plague monks, but I kill the bot straight after.

What exactly was weak evidence? Are you calling my numbers into question? Do you believe the numbers that I posted in OP or are you disputing them?

Thank you for replying. I will be linking another video as Kitten has requested more evidence for my claims so please let me know if you don’t want me to do that.

I understand promotion can be an issue but I have put a lot of work into testing her new talent and collating numbers and stats so I believe that content to be more informative. Hopefully I won’t get flagged again, I’ll definetly refrain from posting the link twice.

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It’s just the automated moderator flagging it, post it and if it gets auto-flagged again I’m sure they will go ahead and unflag it

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I may be misremembering this but I don’t believe difficulty level affects the thp you get from thp on kill talent. Fairly sure each enemy has an assigned thp value based on their hp relative to other enemies and difficulty level/actual hp does not scale this value at all. Not terribly relevant to the post but I try to clear up misinformation where I see it.

You are not misremembering, it is just a static value.
This thread at least

Has a good table for it.

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Oh cool I didnt know that. Thought it was based on their actual health amount.

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Both the numbers and the videos. You failed to say which stats and how much was being used until after, which would clearly be a huge part in determining if you’re just building to kill those enemies quickly (which you are), or if the Talent is actually doing that damage. You still haven’t said whether or not you’re using Enhanced Power for more DoT damage, and how many SV stats total, how much Crit and AS too. You still need to clarify your entire build.

The numbers you’ve stated could be correct, but that doesn’t matter if you don’t disclose those stats.

https://www.ranalds.gift/heroes/

The fact that the initial attacks benefit from Blackvenom unintentionally (confirmed as a bug), already makes those videos show false numbers. Which obviously isn’t your fault.

You’ve also implied that it would be strong on Cata too, by including the Cata numbers and a video, but by your own admission, you have to use a mod to reach Cata values, which we don’t know if it’s correct, and in the video you Crit, use an armour penetrating attack and the SV is AFK.

Here’s why the I don’t think the videos are very good evidence:

  1. Legend
  • Lower health pools
  • Lower Stagger breakpoints, even for push
  • Lower Mass modifiers on enemies
  • Enemies deal less damage, and so you can play more aggressively
  • Low damage breakpoints on every Career for enemies. You could literally make the same video machine gunning SV with Kruber’s Repeater Pistol from 30ft away
  1. The videos aren’t true to gameplay:
  • Can’t stagger out of attacks
  • Positioning
  • There’s Specials
  • Shields
  • Other armoured enemies
  • Other enemy types
  • Other roamers/flanking enemies
  • Teammates
  • Aren’t unshielded enemies spawned in, in one spot, neatly piled up for your first Blackvenom Thicket to put the first stack of Blackvenom up
  • You don’t always have Radiant Inheretance up
  1. You’re stacking stats against the enemy you’re claiming the Talent is strong against:
  • This doesn’t show us how it deals with enemies you’re not using stats against
  • It only shows us that if you stack stats against one type of enemy, you’ll do more damage to that type of enemy. I could say Longbow is strong against Gutter Runners and run Skaven/Infantry, body shot them, and post the video of that here, but it doesn’t show what it does to other Specials with the same stats and only really shows that the games gear system works
  1. You’re only using one weapon type, which not all of her weapons have the same:
  • Push-Cost
  • Stamina count (you literally have 5 Stamina Shields with half-cost pushes lol)
  • Dodge Count
  • Dodge Distance
  • Elite Cleave
  • Inherent Crit Chance (Armour damage)
  • Attack Speed
  • Are Dual Wield (this would affect Heavy Attacks)
  • Traits

You’ve essentially displayed the use of the DoT in a bubble where you have the most optimal build and buffs for killing 10 stacked up unshielded SV with: Blackvenom Thicket (to put the first stack on a group of conviniently stacked up SV), Radiant Inheretance up, and full SV stats, against SV, 5 Stamina Shields, and then are making the general claim that it’s strong, which would imply versatility you’ve not displayed.

I mean you’re possibly even running Opportunist just to keep them in place, since there’s no SS icon. If you are running SS, then it’s even more into question, since you literally have every buff available to you outside of using a Potion. You also would have proc’d the SS in the first hit.

On a Healthpool of ‘52.75’, you Crit 6x dealing, 12, 13.50, 15.25 and 17. You also headshot around twice, and I can’t see the damage numbers. If you included the Light 3 and 4 into the combo you would be doing even more armour damage due to the Crit% and armour pen of the Light 4. Meaning even without the Bleed, you’re capable of dealing damage to armour with Lights.

I think the best course of action is to wait for a fix to the 1 stack initial hit bug, see if they acknowedge Lights hitting through armour as intentional, and then come back to this.

If you can show that it deals highly versatile damage and not just damage to SV (stacked stats) and Hordes, and is outdamaging high DPS builds, then I’ll be on your side. In my own personal experience, I haven’t used SV, since outside of killing unshielded SV, which are easy to deal with, with Lights, the stat would be wasted, since Skaven Hordes get shredded by the weapons which it’s being claimed this is strong with.

It also isn’t clear as to whether you would deal more damage by just using Heavy Attacks anyway. Or if this damage is anything more than what’s capable with any other Kerillian builds with the same stats.

If people think it’s unaesthetic, feels bad or promotes less skillful gameplay, that’s a different argument as to whether it’s strong or not. So, I think I’ll wait to see if Lights putting the Bleed up is even intentional, by the devs (it’s been confirmed that the first attack of SoTT with any build will assume you already have one stack of Blackvenom and that first attack will benefit from it), before I get into whether or not it dumbs down gameplay, since it’s feel is kind of irrelevant unless you start going after Crits on Lights and armour piercing Lights full stop.

I would also add that SoTT doesn’t do any notable damage with her Ults (which are very situational and mostly for utility), so making up for it outside of that wouldn’t even be bad design.

Also dw about the report thing. When I first came to this forum, I tried to use videos to prove what I was saying and people just called me a clout chaser. lol

I am using Enhanced Power. Which both increases the DoT damage and allows me to cleave through 1 extra fanatic and ungor.

Those numbers are without Power vs Properties. The Stormvermin value I adjusted after the initial OP.

You know you are free to hop onto your modded realm and confirm or debunk my numbers. The fact you haven’t is pretty telling.

You can tag enemies with your ult as I did with the 10 stormvermin clip

As far as I know Stormvermin don’t have extra Mass or Stagger Resist between Legend and Cata. Most enemies don’t.

The difference between stormvermin is 33.75 That is not that massive. it takes the time to kill from to 2.2 seconds to 3.6 if we dont include the poison damage. Im not gonna sweat over 1.4 seconds when I can effortlessly spam light attacks. (in my new video and the original vs 10 that is what I do)

And critical hit represent a miniscule amount of extra damage, even at 15% crit chance. The time to kill multiple SV is not significantly altered by that.

I would like to ask you is a Legend Stormvermin that has a 61% damage taken modifier not the equivalent of a Cata Stormvermin?

I got hit only once at the very end of that vs 10 Stormvermin Clip because I was being sloppy. I would have been just fine in Cataclysm. In my new video thats uploading they don’t hit me once.

Also I’m pretty sure my stormvermin DO have more stagger resist since they have substantial damage reduction instead of extra helath.

So every bullet point in your 1st Point after the chart is moot.

As to your Second Point. That is irrelevant. This was never about the flow of a general match. This is about a perk being a bit overpowered. The DPS and ease of use on it is too high, that was the only purpose of the post.

I don’t know why you’re going off on a massive tangent. You have other tools at your disposal for dealing with those issues.

I didnt stack stats the only value I had to adjust from OP was Stormvermin Damage per tick. All other values were correct. Royale with cheese confirmed with me in my reddit post.

Again you’re free to hop on and check yourself. I doubt you will.

The DPS increase value I provided comes from the average of all her weapons DPS light attack combos averaged out with the exception of elven axe.

Please forgive me for using one of the most optimal weapons for the bleed talent. I forgot when people in this game make builds they don’t select optimal weapons and gear. The Audacity, I’m so ashamed.

What a stupid point, of course I used a weapon that compliments the perk. And I would do the smae thing for any other perks, whether I believe them to be overpowered or not. The game doesn’t force random weapons on you, you choose what you take a mission.

You dont think you can do the same with a mixed horde, or a horde with some specials/monster coming at you. Of course if a bigger threat comes up, back up, adjust your playstyle, deal with the threat and then go back to brainlessly spamming your bleed talent.

This is not an argument against the OP.

I am running opportunist. I prefer it, whats your point?

Out of how many shots taken in total? Yu failed to mention that. What proportion of my attacks were crits/headshots?

Also are you saying the vast majority of my damage didnt come from the bleed?

I have myself switched to armour and chaos. Against Hordes the perk is complete overkill on legend. Once adjusted for cleave damage even fanatics lose about half their health to the initial cleave damage. If oyu double the health of legend minions you gain much closer to the aproximately 65% increase to DPS that the perk is capable of giving.

I can use my Ult 4 times per minute 5 if with a dense horde. I can just tag large packs of minions with my Ult. Which is already what I do and start bleeding them.

According to Royale w/ Cheese, in his Hero Power, Buff Stacking, Cleave, Stagger guide - there are no differences in stagger resistance or stagger breakpoints between Legend and Cataclysm. (See his May 1, 2021 comment on the guide.) Is he incorrect?

About “lower mass modifiers” do you mean the linesman, tank, etc., modifiers? While Cata enemies have higher mass than on Legend (EDIT: Cata enemies have the same mass as on Legend as per Bestiary), the mass modifiers like linesman work the same. I believe the relevant source code is here, note that there are no difficulty-specific modifiers: Vermintide-2-Source-Code/hit_mass_counts.lua at master · Aussiemon/Vermintide-2-Source-Code · GitHub

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What’s the full build?

https://www.ranalds.gift/heroes/

It’s not telling of anything other than the fact that you didn’t state your full build.

Once again, I say Longbow is OP and kill Gutter Runners while running a full Skaven Infantry build, without disclosing that I’m running that build.

Doesn’t make a difference. If there’s confirmed to be an issue with the primer for the Talent, then it could be skewing numbers.

It’s not though, because your point is quite literally that the bleed deals too much damage, but then gloss over the fact that Cata SV, and all enemies, have more HP, meaning it’s more balanced on Cata since the percentage of health you take is lower and it takes a longer period to kill them.

On Legend I can one shot SV with bodyshots with a Crossbow.

On Cata I can’t. That enemy is still alive and active.

Therefore I consider Crossbow OP on Legend, but not on Cata. It’s as simple as that.

Mass matters because people are also speaking about Dual Swords, which can Cleave through certain Elites on Legend.

Stagger matters because not everyone is using Opportunist or has enough Stagger to control Elites, which in your video is clearly helping you kill the 10 stacked up unshielded SV.

No idea. There’s more than that though.

These things aren’t mutually exclusive. If it’s overpowered then it would be overpowered in general gameplay. Why else would it ever be necessary to bring it up as you have? There’s 200 variations of this post you could have made, such as Kruber’s Repeater Handgun with SV breakpoints. Hell, WHC:

The enemies you’ve picked are the lowest HP armoured enemy, that you’ve picked all of the stats towards, in the form that’s easiest for you to land the damage on, and the test is set up in such a way that it’s not true to actual gameplay.

You’ve taken small isolated test and made generalisations about it.

About what? All of my points are related to your notion that this is OP while providing evidence that doesn’t reflect actual gameplay.

This information isn’t helpful at all.

Your claim is that the Talent is OP, and I’m making the point that the results would vary depending on the weapon used.

You quite literally posted that video in the OP. Is that your evidence of it being overpowered or not?

You’ve just described a scenario where you couldn’t do what you’re saying while trying to say that you’re still doing it. Interesting.

I’m saying you wouldn’t do as much damage in that scenario. That’s my entire point. You’ve shown a video of you killing SV while stacking SV stats, and not a real scenario.

I was trying to find out if you was or wasn’t, because you didn’t state your entire build.

I didn’t count. I was trying to point out that not all of the damage was the DoT. You at least did enough to down one SV while using Lights.

No. My point was against the argument that Lights doing damage to Armour is dumbed down. They do that anyway. So where do you draw the line?

So now difficulty matters and isn’t moot all of a sudden.

I don’t understand how this is relevant to a bug that has 100% uptime.

If this thread was here to convince me this Talent is OP it hasn’t done it due to the evidence provided.

Again, if there’s some issue with Lights being used as baseline, it’s a different discussion.

Likely not.

It still applies to general gameplay and build vs what’s shown in the video though, and to the video in which Opportunist and full SV/EP stats are used.

It was specifically aimed at Dual Swords, which if I remember can’t hit through multiple Elite enemies on Cata but they can on Legend?

Or was this a bug and fixed? All I remember is something in a patch about it.

Wait do they? I was always under the impression that both stagger resist AND mass were the same from Champion through to Cata. Am I misinformed on that? Not in front of comp so can’t boot up Vermitannica right now to check enemy data.

Stagger resist yes, but mass(not mass modifier) for each enemies differs based on difficulty even above Champion. I’m not sure if enemies get heavier on Cata 2 and 3, but I’m sure that they do on Cata compared to Legend.

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Ummmm, can you share where you’re getting that info from? I just booted up Bestiary and when cycling from Champion through to Cata 1 I couldn’t see a single enemy with a listed mass that varied between the difficulties. Is Bestiary somehow out of date? I thought it read data straight from the code?

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