I just checked too and you are right, I was wrong about Legend and Cata enemies having different masses. My apologies. They gets heavier on Cata 2 and 3, not on Cata.
So from above conversation mass doesn’t change from Legend to Cata. I’m pretty sure it’s been that way since shortly after WoM release.
I really do think that at minimum it should not apply on non piercing attacks. Heck even flense requires that headshot or crit to apply on armored enemies. Dual swords and spear are currently getting some really insane value from this by just spamming light attacks so without even touching the numbers and potentially blackvenom getting some slight tweaks or fixes it might be ok.
My guess is that it’s probably unintentional. Blackvenom is probably supposed to apply on Lights to allow more damage increase, but Atharti’s probably isn’t supposed to.
I haven’t read it all, but seeing the first video I’m quite OK with it.
Before, she’d delete that patrol by pressing one button.
You know, I completely forgot that Flense doesn’t even proc on non-AP attacks.
That just makes this business with Atharti’s even more bafflingly stupid.
Well it isnt quite right that blackvenom ignores armor entirely, or that the bleed seems rather cata-centric and applies off the first hit, but despite that i do agree. This is still more balanced than the infinite cleave nuke ult&whatnot she had before 
Me too. I thought they were different. So Legend and Cata have no differences in mass, mass modifiers, and stagger resistance/breakpoints.
Someone needs to edit the Vermintide 2 ‘Enemies’ wiki article to add that info. Currently, it just says:
Mass
Enemies have a mass stat based on the game difficulty.
Here
https://www.ranalds.gift/heroes/18/223213/26-4-3-3/60-8-6-2/1-3-4/4-6-2/7-2-3
Not a Valid analogy.
Athartis Delight does something thats not supposed to happen. Kill armoured enemies without AP damage. Flense Doesnt do that. I dont care if its intentional or not. I just reported on it.
Athartis Delight is low effort. You can just spam light attacks like a nrain dead moron.
In your analogy you are using a heavily armour piercing weapon to kill unarmoured targets.
Power vs Properties will have a much more significant increase on the longbows DPS than the bleed.
This is all pointless anyway as I have already adjusted the damage number i got wrong after my exchange with Royale. I’ve told you this multiple times now. The Damage numbers stated are boosted only by enhanced, which is the obvious choice to use with the talent.
Are you claiming the bleed is not supposed to apply to an already poisoned target on the first hit?
Did I use dual swords in my video, nice straw man you’ve built. I’d prefer if you keep it to things I’ve brought up, keep your debates with other people elsewhere.
Another nice straw man.
First of all I didnt just say it was the stormvermin damage that was high. I provided numbers for horde minions as well. On Cata 1 and bellow most horde Minions are overkilled. On cata 2/modded diffiiculties and above though the bleed kicks in against hordes and especially mixed hordes (excluding chaos warriors of course.)
I never claimed you were gonna kill specials or Chaos Warriors with it. for what it does it is overtuned.
Incorrect it was a single power vs skaven, which I’ve since changed. And before you mention power vs armour, of course I take power vs armour, I take it with almost all my builds, I would be using it regardless, so the only variable there is the second power property. And again all of my numbers have been adjusted to be with 0 power properties. Royale has confirmed my numbers.
Well I mean in your fantasy world a talent has to provide huge value in all departments of gameplay for it to be overpowered.
Horde Slaying
Elite Slaying
Special Slaying
Monster Slaying
Deal AP damage through non AP attacks
Give you attack and movement speed
That is simply not how I view the term overpowered, and I don’t think most people do either
Ok so I’ll ask again since you didn’t answer. Do you think you cant do the same with a mixed horde?
If not why not? What would prevent you from doing so?
Ok So I’ll ask again since you didnt answer do you think most of my damage came from the bleed or other sources?
I’ll ask a further question. In that Situation do you think it’s easier and safer to spam light light attacks (ignore the ult because you would use regardless of the talent in that situation) or try to heavy attack into that?
Man you reached so far with that one I’m afraid you’ll end up in Narnia. I never said difficulty doesn’t Your implying that it’s less useful in Cata. I just said on Legend its overkill as in the damage doesnt really kick in against hordes or non CW elites. Above Cata 1 it does. I never said you wouldnt kill single or double stormvermin with the light attacks of course i’d use heavys for that. Completely different points.
If youre refering to the fact that the first bleed stack gets the full damage boost of venom. It’s a difference of 0.5 damage per tick. Its a difference of DPS of 0.66 ONLY on the 1st stack so in 3 stacks against hordes its a drop of 2.7%
and against elites its a drop of 5.5% assuming 0 power vs properties.
My argument won’t be changed by that fix.
You could have done that maths yourself but chose not to.
Also I never called for a nerf, I like the talent it’s fun and powerful. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they nerfed it as they did flense.
On a final note here is a second video with the “fake” Cata strormvermin and hordes. Bestigors take slightly longer
And I’m convinced you’re arguing in bad faith now. This was fun but until you can answer that question honestly, I’m done doing maths for you and I’m done engaging with you.
This isnt what it does though.
Going by the first video you posted, the bleed was not applied without headshots or crits against armor. Exception being SnD light 4 which does have AP. Blackvenom was applied (should not happen), but not Athartis(correct).
…
In the first video they just die hella quickly since they only have 50 health and blackvenom does 1+ damage every second or so, which does not count the damage from your headshots/crits that does like 13-20 each. Which also apply the bleed.
I think the bleed does like 18 damage vs armor too, which is seriously high, even in cata, let alone below.
Its nearly 4x flense! And that one is already powerful.
“Edit” - I was mistaken on how the bleed applies, still, i do stand by the thought that it is too high. “EoE”
I dont know if broken is the correct term, maybe overtuned, but let’be real, which elf career isn’t?
I’m glad now that i can fight the patrol without it being nuked with one click.
The video shows how good this sinergy is in horde clearing, and is good against armor and i have no iusse with it. Keeping the same uptime in a real cata game may not be the same easy. In my cata games i see sisters doing much less damage compared to before.
Numbers can be tweaked down but is not ruining my experience.
After testing it out I’d have to agree that it does feel very powerful, a bit overtuned even, unlike what I’ve initially expected. Testing has been done on Cata, used 123323 with DS and Javelin.
I have two conflicted feelings on this. First is that since it encourages brain dead playstyle(ngl I was L1ing for like 80~90% of my testing play and it worked) it might need some changes so that it requires some strategy. Second is that since there are people who do like L1ing a lot, the talent might be okay as it is. Except for the damage numbers though; numbers definitely need some tweaks IMO.
Which is it? Which videos are you using which stats?
If you’re using the Skaven/Armour/EP in that video, it cheapens the point being made. You’re quite literally running the optimal build for killing them, without showing another video where you’re not using any stats against them.
It’s therefore not proof of anything other than the game’s gear - stat system working.
My point was just that you not stating your build weakens your argument that it’s OP.
No, that damage on the first hit assumes enemies already have one stack, which increases the damage of that hit.
It doesn’t seem to apply the Bleed though, which is strange.
Regardless this still skews testing numbers.
No, other people brought it up (which I’ve repeatedly stated) and it’s still relevant to any testing that happens. Especially since it would be the strongest version of the use of this playstyle and Talent. And due to the fact that it’s the only Kerillian Weapon that can Cleave Elites.
Whether it can on Cata the same as Legend is what I brought up.
I’m only addressing you in the sense that you’re a part of the discussion on whether this Talent is OP and you’re providing misleading testing on it. The fact you didn’t specifically bring Dual Swords up doesn’t mean I can’t make points regarding that in terms of testing.
This is the second time you’ve claimed I used a strawman and completely misinterpreted my point.
The point I’m making is that the video you’ve provided doesn’t show anything impressive, because the enemy health pools are lower in Legend.
Things can be completely broken in Legend, but not at all in Cata and vice versa:
E.g.
Crossbow can 1shot bodyshot SV on Legend, but not Cata
Zealot’s heath generation is weak on Legend due to how fast things die from range, and strong on Cata
Basically Legend breakpoints are lower than Cata, which means any testing would show different results.
And in my own personal opinion, you could remake that Legend video 10x showing a ranged Weapon kill those SV with body shots at the same speed.
Versatility is a huge part of something being strong in this game, so this is an important point to make.
So you had 20% Power vs SV and EP. Now show a video without.
Your numbers are only in question because of the bug on the first hit. They could be right to the decimal, but if it’s gathered while a bug is present, it’s not valid nor reliable in the long run.
Versatility is one of the main reasons things have been fixed or nerfed in the past.
I’d suggest it’s the reason SoTT no longer has a damage Career Skill or an execute mechanic.
I’ve avoided your personal attacks in other sections of your responses because they wasn’t very good, but this one is actually hilarious. You’re so completely wrong and certain of it. 
I was going to post some of the threads and arguments about things being too versatile leading to them getting changed, but I think I’ll just leave this here for other people on the forum to get a laugh. And hey, look, it’s already framed!
The Bleed did. Again-again-again, my point is that Lights deal damage to armour now. I mean that’s all some Weapons do. Where do you draw the line?
Nerf 1H Axe, Greataxe, Greathammers, Maces, Spears, flail, Crits?
No idea.
So you understand my argument that testing both Legend and Cata is important and that something being OP in Legend doesn’t make it OP in Cata.
Also something being OP at killing 10 Legend SV with SV stats doesn’t make it OP at other parts of the game.
It effects your testing and the videos you’ve shown as evidence of it being ‘broken’, therefore your testing was not valid or reliable in the long run.
The evidence used to get there would be moot.
Making a post which implies something is OP, e.g. ‘BROKEN’, could lead to it getting nerfed. Which is why I’m here. Hi.
I didn’t call it fake, I just called it’s validity and reliability into question. You was essentially using highly optimized and misleading videos to back up your claim of something being OP. All while not clearly stating your build.
My quote: “No idea. There’s more than that though.”
There is more than Legend Stormvermin though?
You’ve even acknowledged that yourself, by saying the Talent + Stats is overkill on certain difficulties for them so you run different stats.
You’ve accused me of falacies a few times while misunderstanding or misinterpreting my points. I think you should learn what they actually are. All while making personal attacks, and attacks on my character yourself.
Also you doing the maths to prove your own point isn’t my problem. You’re making the claim. Stop trying to make an attack on my character out of you not wanting to prove your own point.
I’ve said a few times, this Talent doesn’t seem spectacular to me. In fact, most of the time when I’m running the double stack Bleed, other people will do more damage from the 24% damage increase.
DoT numbers just bloat and pad like crazy. Most of the DoT damage that occurs in this game is moot due to the enemies taking damage passed the DoT damage you’ve inflicted anyway. You just move them into 1 hit breakpoint range for people, which is SoTT’s specialty.
In a group of 4 how many times would you even reach above 3 DoT stacks without a Boss present?
Do I think it’s OP? I’ve not seen it do anything versatile or bursty enough to be. Enemies die slowly which puts you at risk of dying to Specials or being at risk from other things. It doesn’t do anything insane vs Chaos Warriors and Bosses.
Add on top of that, that SoTT doesn’t get a damage Career Skill. Nor Power, nor defensives. All of that comes from build.
Lights vs armour? Ok, but Elites die in 2 hits from most single-target Heavy Attacks anyway. This Talent can kill SV without shields quickly, but who cares. Most of the time, in normal gameplay, you’re better off Heavy Attacking most Elites, and your damage increase is probably the most useful thing about you vs CW and Bosses.
On top of that, it’s doing it all from melee range, other than the Ult, which deals 0.5 ticks of damage.
Here we go:
If you are refering to my single stormvermin demonstration that will be difficult to make out that the bleed is applying on non AP attack.
If you look at the 10 stormvermin video I only used light 1 light 2. No armour piercing attacks. Only 7 attacks were crit/headshots.
Uh NO. Blackvenom does 0.5 to 0.75 DPS check my Bleed Ticrate video, it even has a timer on screen, you can also count the blackvenom ticks there.
All in All it took 20 seconds for all stromvermin to die 20x0.75 = 15 damage from blackvenom total per stormvermin.
So in total 150 damage from blackvenom.
I counted 96 from the crits/headshts
The Stormvermin have a combined healthpool of 527.5
527.5 - 150 - 96 = 281.5 Bleed Damage. Divide that by 20 and you get a DPS of 14.50 Which corroborates my number btw.
Only 7 physical damage numbers came up, so only 7 attacks could have applied bleed by your logic. that leaves 3 stormvermin that died magically?
Couldn’t have been the poison it doesnt deal enough dps in 20 seconds to kill a single stormvermin.
It is a fact the bleed applies to non armour piercing attacks, and my video shows it.
The singles storm vermin video does too, you just have to slow down the footage a lot. At 2 seconds you see a single 2.25. from the second light attack and at 3 seconds you see 2 values of 2.25 come very close to each other from light 3 and light 4. Remember that the first tick doesn’t come at the same time as an attack lands when that attack lands it starts a timer for the first tick, so there is a delay between an attack that applies a dot landing and the first tick of damage.
If I understood correctly you are saying that the bleed/poison damage increase the dps of sott by 1.45 against armor. This number doesn’t look overbearing.
Properly writing the damage per tick is about 0.25 is it not? 0.5 if running double stacks…However. To me it seems to tick faster than 1 per second, especially if landing multiple hits with or without AP.
Thats then about 2 damage per second…which i failed to realize in hindsight.
As for the tickrate video, i honestly cant quite tell what i am looking for there, it only seems to showcase it being very fast.
Huh, you are correct,it was too difficult to tell during the multi-target test but single did showcase it well.
Welp, i was mistaken, edited previous posts to reflect.
I didnt say Damage per tick, I said DPS. Damage per SECOND from both stacks. Again my tickrate video on my channel shows it. I’ll let you do the maths. I got a value of 0.625 or something close to that, you can confirm for me. The game rounds damage though so I placed it into a range of 0.5 to 0.75. It has a timer on the screen so it’s extremely easy to see for yourself. If you are struggling to count the damage ticks then again you can slow sown the footage, makes it a lot easier and thats how I did it when I worked out my bleed values.
Incorrect. The poison isnt taken into account in this post at all, with the exception of Frostysir’s last comment I replied to. The Bleed and Venom damage are worlds apart.
Blackvenom Damage per TICK = 0.25
BlackVenom Damage per SECOND (2 stacks) = 0.625
Bleed Damage per TICK against armour = 3
Bleed Dps per SECOND agaisnt armour (3 stacks) = 12