There would be too many situations where a set % ammo regen per elite would either too weak or too OP to truly balance.
1x Plasma Vet and 3x Psyker. Nice, first thing forget Plasma, swap to Heavy Bolter and all ammo AND grenades is yours pickups and don’t need ammo regen. Now Vet is completely OP.
4x Autogun Vets. Not enough ammo to go around.
Both extreme cases true.
So trying to work out what is fair ammo regen % that would satisfy any team composition would be difficult.
There is only one way. Fixed ammo allocation per mission segment per player, no ground pickups. Now FS know exactly how to balance spawns knowing the fixed ammo available to make it fair. Also you know exactly your limits without the RNG Ammo pickups from ground in target priority before next mission segment.
On the topic of ammo, I don’t really feel the game is designed around ammo being effectively limited. A sort of burst limit, but it’s not supposed to have players flat running out unless they meander or get particularly wasteful.
More to the point, I feel the ammo system should be reworked with the goal of giving every class permanent passive ammo regen. Not as a talent, not as a choice. Not even hard to do. Just a simple: “Team accomplishes arbitrary goal, get ammo.” Too many coop shooters have been ruined by the devs trying to work in an ammo economy and just not getting the balance right. It’s good to need some form of management, it’s bad when you can flat run out from normal play with a couple of jerks on the team or slightly bad game design.
Don’t think ammo regen will change attitude. People always going to play aggressively, sucking up ammo, meds with high mobility melee classes.
Arbites matches Zealot in mobility. Even Ogryn can outpace, not just talking about speed. They can stagger, brute force through enemies and Vets are left with 5% toughness on kill node to survive if stuck in horde. Other classes get toughness back from hits, stagger, heavy, block, dodge, keystones etc Not even needing kills.
Maybe on rare occasion there is sniper modifier where plasma vet shines. But most of time the melee class abilities close the distance to ranged enemies so fast.
I say this for Quickplay, as Havoc different story where people tend stick around for VoC and not wander off.
Vet isn’t better or worse shooter than Ogryn or Zealot. Executioners and Marksman Focus are the only real pointers towards a range build, and they both are, by an immeasurable amount, the worst choice in Vets tree.
If that makes Vet a ranged career, Ogryn has to be one too, since he too features a ranged only keystone and ability. Both being miles better than Vets versions.
Vet, and the game in total, does not need the Ammo Aura. Its something we could easily get rid of in a rework.
Meaningless semantics, a car that can’t get past 100 kph and guzzles twice the fuel than it should is still a car. Just as neglect isn’t the same as non-existence!
I’ve put forth reasonable and respectful questions, there was no need to repay me with empty semantics
Good, now we have two classes with a possible ranged niche and that makes the question of ammo regen even more pertinent
Fair enough and now for the third time, could you please expand upon it?
Again i don’t want to be rude, but “Because Vaeneas said so” surprisingly doesn’t have the explanatory range you think it does.
Could you please explain why the game doesn’t need ammo regen? Thanks
I’ve said before that other classes should have ammo regain nodes, but in leiu of that since this is a vet thread, I think that all vets should have scavenger (not as an aura) and grenade regen as early, essential nodes, as part of their class identity. We’re not like the other classes who can get blitzes that dont rely on grenade refills.
We do have a lot of node tax though. Things like one motion should be baked into weapon specialist. The three grenade or three aura choices should more or less converge onto one node. 5 percent health and 5 percent toughness damage reduction tax nodes down the center? Its egregious. Some keystone nodes are decent too but we cant pay for them.
In Quickplay. There is enough ammo pickups if players share ammo in tactical manner. People don’t share as such.
Ogryn, Arbites and Zealot all have ability to snipe with precision weapons at long range. Benefit is their melee strength included. Heavy Bolter and G Heavy Stub, able to snipe and benefit of anti-monstrosity too. Then save ammo by pure melee on horde and armour.
Vet weaknesses
Vet has little or no survival nodes if caught in melee horde alone. Perhaps one off VOC, grenade but can’t sustain toughness return like other melee classes.
Infiltrate can be used for escape, but then cooldown so long might as well go zealot stealth which is shorter cooldown and better melee if still can’t escape.
Vet’s keystones encourage you play in a unnatural playstyle to reap benefits that warrant so much distraction you’d rather take flat consistent nodes and skip keystones. Other melee classes, have keystones that just requiring hitting, no gimmicks.
FS need to rework the gimmicks for Vet keystones.
Marksman Focus. Stay still, build stacks, kill then can move for a bit without stack loss penalty.
Focus target. Tag one enemy, but don’t tag next one yet until stacks built up, wait, then tag again
Weapons specialist. Don’t swap until get some stacks up.
Just not naturnal in way you would play. i.e. You would always be moving and always be tagging next enemy and you’re swapping so often in battle you’re not going to wait for specialist stacks to really build up.
I agree with everything, but Weapon Specialist and Focus Target should not be touched, they are great keystones. Focus Target allows killing Twins really fast in Havoc 40, and Weapon Specialist makes melee Vet viable.
But Marksman Focus should definitely be changed. No amount of finesse damage make it enjoyable to play.
Or really that much plausible, even the most static build i can come up with still has to deal with things like geometry and often benefits more from constant repositioning than it ever would from the marksman focus.
And that’s before accounting for enemies having ideas and the whole environmet being inherently highly fluid.
Past certain difficulty the Marksman focus becomes tax incarnate
Marksman Focus should be buffed. I like the suggestions here already. I’ll add another. One of the nodes gives additional cleave with Marksman stacks.
Focus Target is great. I’d change the node that increases focus stacks up to 8 though. You see, when you kill a tagged enemy, you get one stack back. In a target rich environment, this gives minimal benefit since you don’t have that much time to build stacks. With the Focus node that gives stacks up to 8, have the kill return 2 stacks upon a tagged target kill.
Weapon Specialist has too many further nodes that nobody takes outside of automatic reload for ranged specialist shenanigans with revolver and double barrel. Seriously, one of the nodes is to restore 20 percent stamina, and the one beyond that is 25 percent stamina efficiency.
The node beyond automatic reload part of the magazine for ranged weapons is 20 percent faster reload for 5 seconds. You can get 25 percent reload speed if your weapon still has ammo in the mag or 30 if you killed an elite or specialist unit NEAR THE BEGINNING OF THE VET TREE.
The only one worth getting is restoring toughness on weapon specialist activation but there’s a node tax of the aforementioned for it, and vet’s starved for nodes going right side as it is. Its just plain wrong.
I’d also add that Marksmans Focus removes one of the most fun parts of this game, which is the movement.
Going into a ranged build just to hit any kind of RNG breakpoint makes you lose melee survival/damage.
If a Career is reliant on a massive AoE stun that makes them near invincible maybe there’s a survivability problem.
The biggest problem with Vet, imo is lack of access to Special 1shots. Arbites Shotgun makes 90% of Vet’s tools pointless and require too much investment.
There are some major differences between the classes arbites and vet, but the vet class is so cobbled together that arbites just feels like they’re abandoning vet and trying to replace him, which is a crying shame because vet has some really cool guns and designs.
I might have just wasted money on cosmetics for my vet class.
Fatshark just doesn’t have enough public trust for me to believe that they will fix these issues.
Well, the idea is that the Survivalist would be replaced with a different effect, and the ammo reserves available in missions, weapon max ammunition, or ammunition received from pick ups could be balanced / adjusted without taking Survivalist variable into account. But I don’t feel very strongly about it either way.
The important part is that something needs to happen to the Veteran’s auras to provide a meaningful choice.
Vets are in much more disadvantage in Quickplay than Havoc. Simply by the way randoms play with their melee classes, rush fast, suck the loot, don’t share, ignore backspawns, last person it is their problem usually Vet or Psyker.
Maelstrom, Auric, T5 Regular - They all play the same way. With little or no thought to ones left behind
People are choosing melee class based on survival because in Quickplay it is uncoordinated and less chance someone looks out for you if caught in close combat armoured horde.
How about we make survivalist a core part of the kit, remove it from the tree and replace it with something else?
I do feel bit strongly about this on pure principle, as i genuinely don’t think touching one talent should ever result in missions being changed or other classes ammo economy/weapons being affected, but that’s just me.
On the side note, while i can see the Survivalist being problematic in the sense of being the only meaningful choice, i don’t really connect it with ammo, ammo pick ups, weapons magazine sizes and so on, two entirely separate things in my book.
TL;DR i dislike the keystone, but i like the effect it provides and i’m quite happy with the way ammo is being right now
First and foremost they gonna disappear for the next two months, away on the Swedish summer fiesta then come back for a little before progressively wormholing out of existence as the christmas time nears.
If we lucky we get the Zealot rework just before they quantum tunnel to Santa’s realm
Man vet mains have such short memories. He is the most reworked class in the game. He’s seen 3 major tree reworks. He just saw a buff to Lucius lasgun THIS patch and is positioned to take the most advantage out of the combat shotguns buffs besides Arbites. He also got access to the schmaul, bolt pistol and double barrel in the second to most recent major content patch. Shmaul just got buffed. Vet needs a tree rework 5sure but hes not a poor sad victim of neglect. His tree just (still) sucks.