AI director's problems / spikes of difficulty during specific final events

This don’t want to be a balance discussion, I would like just to know if it’s intended or not.

Normally every final event is setted around a specific difficulty… but, sometimes, there is an incredible spike of difficulty.

The main affected final events are:

  • Skittergate: the arena can be filled by an infinite horde of shielded SVs and Monks;
  • Engines of War: as above, sometime spawn mainly shielded SVs and Monks;
  • Enchanter’s Lair: can spawn a patrol of Chaos Warriors

When this happens Legend becomes Cataclysm and Cataclysm becomes Ultra-Cataclysm… it adds too much RNG.

Scripted events don’t have rng, the only way events can be different is if there are different roaming enemy packs or the player does something different (Depending on how the event works). Events can have differences in feel because of : player skill; careers chosen; psychology behind events (example: fort brackenshruke where you have to stay in a little platform on the cannon, or convo where you keep standing in the pool and dont dare to drop out, etc).

But i’m rambling so

To answer your question: there isn’t any rng. but it can feel like it sometimes, but thats mostly because of factors like composition/positioning etc.

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Could you explain better this point? Because it’s very interesting.

I mean, you right, psychology and team composition can make a huge difference… but, taking Enchanter’s Lair as example, if sometimes spawns a patrol of Chaos Warrios and other times only “trash” enemies… the difference is huge and real.

Honestly I would call it “RNG”, because when CWs spawn the event becomes much harder.

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For example on screaming bell: roaming enemies spawn around the bell area and those get aggro’d when the event starts and the event waves start coming in, so depending on what enemies are spawned around the event area you could get more sv’s, but the event enemies stay the same.

I didnt play the Last map yet, but are those cw’s from the event or do you mean a chaos patrol? A chaos patrol is random, yes. cw’s in an event should be fixed or spawn only when a certain criteria is met. should have to check, but someone who played the map might be better to answer that one for me.

He prolly means the enemy wave that can include up to 4 chaos warriors.

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For many events this is correct. They are mostly scripted not only in how many elites are coming but also which elites are spawning.

However, there are some events which have a rng factor (aside from special spawns) included. I’m not sure about Skitteragte and Engines of War. But Enchanter’s Lair is actually a good example. The boss fight has three phases. At the beginning of each phase he will summon a chaos wave. By rng this wave (on Cataclysm) can contain no elites or Berserkers or maulers or even Chaos Warriors up to 6-8 in numbers. Getting a Chaos Warrior wave at the beginning of Phase 3 is the only thing I would consider “unfair” in an otherwise well-balanced fight.

So yea, they are rather rare but some spikes truly exist.

Hm, thinking about it more, I think none of the boss fights is completely scripted. There is a pool of potential wave compositions. One of the potential waves is then chosen randomly everytime a wave is triggered. So Skittergate can become ridiculous if there is bad luck.
Most other events like the arena in Righteous Stand are completely scripted on the other hand. The mid-event in Engines of War too. Spawns there will be nearly identical every time.

Overall, I would say it is intended. I would have to check each event separately but I think the determing factor is the presence of specials. Arena in Righteous Stand, Final of Convocation of Decay, etc. are all scripted from wave side but have random specials. Boss fights have no specials and as such have rng in the spawning waves.

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I´ll do a quick drop of my thoughts here.

Skittergate : Indeed the arena can be filled by a massive horde, but on the other hand a team paying attention should easily be able to block and clear all 4 spawns while slowly wearing rasknit down if the stormfiend dies quickly enough so no problem.

Engines of war : The final event here always spawns a heap of stormvermin and monks as well as some gunners so this should be scripted.

Enchanters lair : I have not run here often enough to say for certain but i during the last 10 times i did i never had an occasion where an entire chaos patrol spawned.

AKA 6 chaos warriors, 4-ish maulers and a bunch of shield carriers that is, instead at worst i got like 4-5 chaos warriors and some normal raiders, maybe a couple of maulers.

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Yes, you are correct. There is a little rng included in some events. There is a certain percentage that enemy types can change in the horde compositions. (shielder marauders, clan rats instead of slave). on convocation there are, if i’m correct, 3 fixed special combo’s that can spawn so that is rng, but the combo’s can not mix with themselves, but technically it is rng, or they get chosen from a fixed list. The thing is that that it doesnt change the difficulty as much as OP asked, it’s not like sometimes it spawns 4 specials and sometimes 1 or sometimes a chaos wave instead of a skaven one.

On skittergate i dont know exactly how the waves work, i’m sure someone more knowledgable than me could jump in.

In Cataclysm Lair during the flies phase he can call upon trash pack, maulers with trash, beserkers with trash or CW with trash. Though I am pretty sure the number of any of the above mentioned elite isn’t four. More like fourteen :wink:

These spikes are most likely from the distance the spawn has to travel and how they can spread out or not.

In skitter, you only get 4-5 SV/monk + trash at one spawn point and then they have to climb/ jump. So if you pay attention, you can clear at least half of it before they are even a threat.

In Enchanter they immediately jump down when they spawn, so you get the sh*t dumped on you in about 1-2 seconds.

Engine end event has a long travel route and a lot of space for them to fan out, making it easier to whittle them down.

If/when players fail to clear fast enough and are forced to kite and the others ignore/don’t notice, then we start to have a problem. This can get worse, when the spawn is the worst possible, dumping berzerker units and/or super armor/shields.

I had wipes on Engine end event when we got only Shield SV mixed in with monks on top of the trash, or when the trash brought only CWs.

It’s not a bug so much as a result of how things are spawned, which can result in spikes of challenge, sometimes mad challenge. But really, would you want the game to be more restrictive and remove these spikes, so every event has a wholly predictable ‘difficulty’ to it on every run? I’d wager things would get samey. They generate epic clutch moments as well, which are a big hook on what makes high end play so rewarding.

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To be fair I advocate for events to have a kinda predictable “difficulty” (even with some randomness), and the rest of the game (which is 90% of the map) to have a random one. Events are at the end of a journey already. The loss of an event is the loss of everything we did on the map.

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First of all, thanks for th clarification. At least now I know it’s not a bug.

I can understand your point of view but there should be an halfway… because, seriously, certain “combinations” of RNG can be very, very unfair.

You should try out the game “Dwarf Fortress”. This games really teaches very often about “Loosing” being “fun”.

Jokes aside. I see your point of view. However can’t really comprehend it.
Would you want to make the game more fair? I mean realisticly speaking, Chaos and Skaven don’t care about being fair. The game will sometimes throw seemingly impossible odds against you.

But when you beat those odds, isn’t the feeling great? When your teammates salute to you in their gaming chairs of what you just managed to do?

Of course there are situations that need to be fixed. Just look at the Beastmen.
They did get their nerf.

Some examples you wrote can be better managed in the future.
At Skittergate, I started bringing Shieldbreaker weapons with me or a flail. And made myself responsible for clearing out those Shieldrats.
At Engines of War, I just learned to stick together. Many teams who get repeatedly stomped just split up because they want to destroy all Doomwheels ASAP. Do one at a time. Stay in tight formation and try to take care of the monks from afar or together.
At Enchanter’s Lair: Don’t have anything right now. Still learning it. A lot of AP Damage is of course beneficial.
The game is still not just a Hack & Slay. Strategy in the higher difficulties is important!

The next time your party gets stomped just try to think about what went wrong.
Could we’ve done something better? Was it really completely impossible?

Happy Slaying!

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This would be valid, if your game had a progress based reward and not a completion based reward.
If you only lost 1-2 levels of chest quality because of a spike and not result in getting NOTHING - no please don’t point to the meagre XP which is rather insulting than being a consolation price - then we wouldn’t have threads like this…

Experience for my juicy commendation chests.

Makes me remember the good oneshot weave times where i got lots of commendation chests just by failing weaves over and over again.

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