because they did that in VT1 and they recieve massive complaints about it. the bonuses in the first vermintide were mostly %chance to proc effect, which both discourages mathing (because in a single run you did not proc anything often enough to even out the random nature of it) and made it so you could have much more varied and powerful effects balanced by being rare to activate like HKB one-shotting roger.
the mathhammer people hated it and WOULD NOT SHUT UP about how bad they thought the weapons were. they could not math it out so they considered the game design worthless and send almost nonstop feedback about how bad it was for “quality of life”. fatshark always tries to make their playerbase as a whole happy, and it’s honestly stupid because there’s a large chunk of it that just gets off on hating the game they’re putting out.
Okay, the solution to this is to not have random effects, though.
People will optimize stuff. The meta always exists.
The solution to that is to provide horizontal balance for your weapons, and randomized effects aren’t that. Give people sidegrades and they’ll lap it up.
I seriously question why you keep trying to blame the players for the devs not wanting to acknowledge how game design works.
that my point, people will always try to optimize stuff and demand there is a meta and they solved that in VT1 by making the effects randomly proc instead of making in guaranteed.
making sidegrades is stupidly hard in practice because people will if given the chance kill every last ounce of fun in the game trying to squeeze out a tiny amount of optimization and then blame the devs for making it hard to get that when the goal was to have them not do it at all. making them unreliable from the standpoint of turning each tun into a math equation solves this.
they’ve seen by this point that the problem is the community will ruin the game for themselves refusing to accept mathammering. the answer isn’t working with that group of people, because they’re not people you can work with. it’s making the people trying to form a meta as horrifically miserable and disrespected as possible.
People build a meta - and it’s most of the people involved, as everyone chases what’s more effective and fun.
Rather than acknowledging that that is going to happen, your solution is to try and build the game to deliberately alienate those people.
This is like saying that in response to people learning chess strategies you should reshuffle the board and make the game as hard as possible to play consistently because they’re just chasing optimization and sucking the fun out of the game.
And in both that analogy and with this game, you shouldn’t be surprised when the reaction of most people is to just…leave, and stop playing the game that is being disrespectful to them.
Regardless, this has been an illuminating conversation.
IMO Red weapons will dismantle their entire approach in DT. I doubt we will see reds. I do agree that crafting has to be optimized, but I’m also not on the side that it needs huge sweeping changes.
I just want more skins, obtainable through using the gun, or simply playing.
Wrong. people build a meta, in the belief that “winning = Fun” and ignore if this actually shakes out.
in darktide (And honestly most every co-op game) that leads to people having LESS fun as people will ignore most of the stuff in the game, get mad at people “not following meta” and trying to apply the meta harder when bad team interaction causes problems. it’s in fatshark’s best interests to discourage this because it alienates new players and pushes good teamplay out the window in favor of being toxic and spending more time bulding spreadsheets than playing.
This is honestly a fascinating conversation. Although completely off OP topic, I will take a bite.
I think FS hasnt found “it” yet. Whatever that maybe. HD2 has clearly nailed an approach, theme and schedule . And although there is “meta” builds, people getting mad TK’ing, the fun outweighs the negative…by a mile.
This is FS’s problem. The negativity revolving around FS’s content cycle/game/performance/etc. drastically outweighs the fun. Its gotten to the point IMO that it doesn’t matter what you define “fun” as. At each corner you turn, in game or out, you come face-to-face with something negative.
I also like pull back to a simpler time and bring up L4D. Turtle Rock found “it”. I would define “it” as replayability. L4D didnt really have a meta, gun choice, playstyle, aside from dont run ahead and FF, and focus fire tanks/witches. There wasn’t a progression system, weapons, skins, MTX. The game worked and multiplayer was available on launch. The fun drastically outweighed the negative.
In summary, Ill be playing something else until FS can figure it out and I start hearing the game is fun again.
Are these ‘toxic players’ in the room with us now?
No seriously, I have 300 hours. The closest I got to a toxic player was an Ogryn who refused to extract.
These people exist, sure, but they’re nowhere near the threat you seem to think they are. There’s not some meta-insisting gestapo wandering around demanding everyone conform or get kicked, at least not at vanilla Damnation where I spend my time.
If Fatshark really did introduce RNG to stop people from chasing the meta and being toxic, the cure was manifestly worse than the disease.
most toxic players are a problem outside the game itself in darktide’s case, asmost people have voice muted and typing is too long form them to rage during the game. so they get hostile in the social media and such
it’s important to be clear that helldivers is an entirely different genre of game. they’re offering a much more casual gameplay experience where balance is way less impactful compared to darktide, and where you can contribute to the team much more easily without skill/optimization.
fatshark knows they’re not making that kind of game, and they know what makes the game the want to make fun. this doesn’t mean their playerbase does, and because they’re developing a lisanced game, they have to live with attracting a certain amount of people who do not want to engage with what they made the game for because “a 40k game shouldn’t do that, it should do this!(what that player wants out of a 40k experience)”.
Both Hd2 and DT are Co-op Horde shooters. If you disagree, you’re wrong, but fine. I also mentioned L4D, you may have missed, which FS is very much inspired by.
I don’t want them to try and reinvent the wheel. That’s cool, but that should be in a game that’s more about grinding for weapons. 'Tide games just need something simple and functional.
There’s lots of systems that have been proven in other games that I think would work here. My pick for Darktide would just be the Call of Duty style; once you unlock a weapon you have it and can adjust its perks and blessings freely. They can keep the random item stats if they want, since it’s not that hard to fish up a weapon with decent base stats. Keep the +bonus percentages as just free unlocks, but let us unlock perks by just using the weapons, and upgrade them. So if you use Brutal Momentum 1 and get, I dunno, 50 headshot kills with the weapon, you unlock 2. It would be a mistake to make these massive grinds, there’s a lot to unlock and level up.
But this would also encourage completionists to engage with all the perks more, try them out. “I want to level up x, thus I must use it and try it out”. Of course, if you hate perk x, you can also just ignore it, but the net effect will be encouraging players to try out new builds.
This would be good IMO because it makes you engage with the strongest part of the game; the core combat loop (and to be clear since people often don’t seem to understand what I mean by this; I mean literally the act of fighting enemies in the levels). 'Tide games are not games where you want to spend a lot of time in the hub. Sorry, I know it’s a neat hub and all, but I just want to be down on Tertium fighting heretics.
As for what they WILL do; I think my thought is a possibility. It’s fairly simple to implement, I think, given how common it is in games. But they may do something else. The bare minimum is just removing locks, though I still dislike having to pay to try new things.
-WEAPON GRIND
I agree. CoD2 style of unlocking skins by getting kills was the simplest and easiest way to stay engaged. Getting that Tiger Red, or whatever it was so satisfying.
I personally like The Division style of weapon grinding.(or Diablo 2 which was/is closest thing to perfect IMO)
It’s strange because the style for grinding weapons doesn’t seem complete without attachments, which FS had a classic response early on saying DT isnt CoD.
-CRAFTING
With crafting it comes down to optimization for me. Also a satisfying “hunt” for resources would be nice, current resource management is meh.
Get gold, spam shop for 80%, roll to upgrade, discard, repeat. 1, 2,3, or 4 menus to cycle between? zzzz
Any easy way to discard unusable weapons would be nice, along with some sort of return, even if its a fraction of the price. I havnt played in a while… maybe its in there.
i didnt notice, was crafting going to be in this months patch as well?
i dont think it was mentioned in the announcements, is their another place Fatshark posts?
are they active on twitter, or do they have another discord, i only found the one, and the modding one?