That’s a horrible argument. Not every class should be the same. That’s the entire reason to have different classes.
You fundamentally misunderstood zealot tbh. It’s a high mobility class with a lot of tools in its kit that allows to quickly go from any point to the other. Invis, charge, all the talents that relate to staminea and dodge… You can build him to be able to break off from a group, flank and just clear the entire back line and be back for dinner. Being able to solo is a requirement for that, along with corresponding talents.
As well as group babysitter with the cross. The point is to have options in terms of playstyle. And not just change stuff because you don’t like it.
Not even gonna comment on the babysitting everyone should leave in pairs part. Seriously.
Vet has stealth, zealot has stealth. Ogryn has charge that increases attack speed, zealot has charge that increases attack speed. Vet has ability that increases ranged effectiveness, ogryn has ability that increases ranged effectiveness. Vet has a group toughness buff that knocks back enemies, zealot has group toughness buff that knocks back enemies. Ogryn has blitz that don’t count as grenades and are not replenished by grenade boxes, zealot has knives that don’t count as grenades and don’t replenish from grenade boxes.
The psyker is the only class that is different enough from the others because it has warp powers and fundamentally works different
So can literally any of the classes. You have fundamentally misunderstood the entire game. Get your head out of your arse.
I have given reasons to change it. I have never said “I want it changed just because I don’t like it.” You on the other hand have given no reasons not to change it. I and the OP say it needs to change, why do you apparently think it shouldn’t change? All you have done is throw mostly strawmen arguments back for why you don’t like what I am saying
Hypocrite.
Look: I am not saying remove the thing’s ability to allow for the player to pull away from the group, I am saying it gives nothing to the group while the zealot remains close and nothing to the group when away. People (yourself included) have the stance that coherency regen isn’t good anyway so the ability basically gives the zealot nothing most of the match. (unlike literally every single other talent in the entire game across all classes) So it fundamentally isn’t a good aura and you only take it because you have to to save talent points. (benediction objectively is better for running off solo anyway since toughness DR > level 2 coherency regen)
What can be done to improve this ability? A lot because the ability basically doesn’t do anything in the first place. The most simple change that doesn’t at all alter the playstyle: further lean in to encouraging breaking off from the team. Loner does what it has always done BUT also counts you towards your teammates’ coherency count for 10 seconds after you leave coherency. This encourages skirmisher flanking tactics which is a good thing.
That too strong? Ok, it does what it has always done but has an effect that applies only to teammates in coherency. What is that effect? Something small, not too impactful. Let’s say 5% stamina regen and 0.25 Stamina regen delay reduction 9that is something other auras don’t already give). Don’t like that? How about something that won’t be useful most of the time but for those moments when the zealot should be sticking worth the team it comes in handy: 10% monstrosity damage. No? Okay so you people keep saying loner lets you clutch when you are last up gives downed allies 25% DR. (couple be lower doesn’t matter point is to give the team something)
So let me make this clear the ONLY thing I actually don’t like about it is is gives NOTHING to the rest of the team. No other aura does this.
Somehow still think the ability should just be all “Look at me I can solo the game” fine, make it better at doing that. You count as having 4 coherency at all times, but you do not gain the benefits of other auras. If you are going to make it “loner” make is loner. This is actually “leech” seeing as you gain the benefits of the other three auras but give nothing in return (aura-wise, not saying the person using loner isn’t contributing to the team). Instead of giving coherency give stacks of “loner” while you are in coherency (1 per second stacking to 10), leaving coherency then activates “loner” stacks giving a boost of some sort and lasting 15 seconds. Now the ability is telling you to weave in and out of coherency. It allows dives into the backline but still requires you to regroup occasionally. Again, don’t know what an appropriate buff would be, probably attack speed and some damage-related buff, maybe 10% attack speed and 10% crit damage?
The point is the ability is such a nothing talent right now that literally anything else would be better. Heck replace it with a 5% melee damage node and be done with it for all I care (you then keep the default zealot aura which I think is fair, it is objectively worse than benediction but it is better than nothing for the team when you are in coherency).
loner is s stupid perk, what’s the point of being in coherency if your not getting the buffs from your allies?
toughness regen? that doesn’t even work in melee combat
and zealot has so much toughens regen capabilities in melee combat from other perks
loner is a trash perk, might work if your playing some weird gun zealot build? i guess? or when your running between fights (which doesn’t last long on higher tiers)
don’t like it, don’t like it at all, replace it with anything else and i will consider using it more then never
Ogryn is the slowest character in the game. He has neither the constant uptime of his charge, nor the inherent movement speed Zealot has. Vet’s invis is basically a get out of jail free card like the Zealot’s but he lacks the tankiness to survive for too long on his own. Similar ability, different playstyle. Get it now?
Pot calling the kettle black. Didn’t you just dictate how people should play the game with splitting in pairs? Might wanna check your own head as well.
Reading comprehension is a sorely lacking skill these days. I said it’s fine the way it is. You’re the one advocating for change so you may as well provide reasons. I’m merely disagreeing.
Intentionally misunderstanding, because I used the same word twice. Impressive.
I listed the ways Zealot can be played. You can absolutely play in your favorite babysitting style with the corresponding ability. I also said that it shouldn’t be a required playstyle. Do you get it now or should I break it down further? I can also provide drawings.
At the moment it’s a great shortcut when you want to mix and match seemingly conflicting trees. The cost is a subpar ability compared to DR and curse res clearance. I’m fine with that.
The moment you increase the rewards loner gives it won’t ‘encourage’ skirmisher flanking tactics, it’ll merely increase the number of amateurs and idiots breaking off because of ‘muh loner buffs’. Which means the initial problem will just worsen. That’s why I say it’s fine the way it is.
It’s a trash concept from the get go that’s hard to build and balance around in a team based game, especially with mechanics like coherency. You won’t be able to salvage it with changes. Best you can do is get rid of it. I don’t believe there’s a way to fix it, especially given the playerbase.
here’s a cool idea, replace the perk with one called last man standing
and make it a team buff as well
essentially when their is only 1 player alive as in still standing, they get a decent buff of some kind, movement speed, toughness regen damage whatever, a small mix of everything
this means they las player alive has a slightly better chance at reviving someone
(this would only work for team members if the zealot is on the ground bleeding out with one other player alive etc or if the last player gets close to pick up the team, while the zealot is tied up etc)
this also has the added benefit of giving the zealot themselves a permeant buff while they are the only person alive on the team, trying to clutch up and run to the next area to revive their team mates etc
i would run that. i would consider dropping half my build to try and run that
the buffs would need to be better then a standard aura buff since it has extra requirements to activate
Loner is useful when the zealot is split from the group, when, by example you are in melee and the others have retreated. You know that if you turn back, you will die… then here, it is useful
Also, it is also useful if you go alone checking chests.
useful also if you play a zealot with stealth 6 seconds
Anyways, nerfing something that is not strong is totally absurd.
it is useful each time you are not in coherency, something as a zealot that happens quite often.
Also, there are interesting talents in this part. By example, Good Balance that give you +25 damage reduction on a successful dodge.
And this is something really good, and even if you don’t want to play ninja.
Also, nerfing something cause someone that don’t use it don’t like it…
Here a cool idea… let this aura alone, it is good as it is. It is not OP, far from that.
And this is something that has its role in the right side of the zealot tree.
As a zealot, this aura can give you tools to play differently. And that’s great.
I like freedom, exactly why I hate current veteran keystones.
And you just want to restrict the gameplays… sorry, but I really want to keep a part of freedom in this game, and don’t want perks that force me to play something.
being in melee combat, stops toughness coherency regeneration, what are you getting from being in coherency while being in melee combat if it is not buffs from your allies?
it does not depend on if you are being hit or not, an enemy is targeting you for an attack in melee range that is enough to prevent the regen buff from happening, go test it out in the meat grinder with a mod that enables AI, come back here and tell me I’m wrong
if not i can get you a video later on
I have provided arguments. You have said what amounts to “No.” as a response.
I have suggested several different change options, you have responded to two of them.
You don’t want to have a discussion. You want nothing to change. Your last comment said as much. You refuse to state why you want nothing to change and demand others state why they want it to change which you then just say no to.
Honestly there are tons of cool things you could add in it’s place IMO, something like a movement speed aura, a thorns style aura or even a stamina Regen aura… The possibilities are endless…
Starting by this assertion, we could say it’s untrue: stealth promotes bad teamplay rather than the loner passive.
Stealth coupled with the great survivability of the Zealot.
This does not mean I don’t agree the passive is bad, I would change it but not for the reason it makes players bad teamplayers.
Greatly increased range for counting allies within Coherency.
Something like a 100% or 200% increase. That way the Zealot can be quite far away from their team and still count as within range, but they can’t run off into the next postal code. They could even benefit from auras as well (even more incentive to generally stay close). They would still provide coherency to others at the usual range though.
AND,
The Zealot gains coherency with teammates who are dead.
If one teammate is dead, you will count as in 2 coherency no matter where you are, which will help a lot if the Zealot decides to charge/sneak ahead to rescue someone. That way it would still be useful for the clutch when you’re the last one standing, because you’d count as in 4 coherency. Could be capped at 2 if 4 is too much. And you don’t get dead teammates’ aura effects.
Maybe this could apply to the whole team, as in if someone is dead (besides the Zealot), everybody counts as in 2 coherency no matter where they are. Or maybe the Zealot provides greater coherency counts for each dead teammate, so if one person is dead, the Zealot counts as 2 people for everybody else’s coherency, so a team of 3 sticking together would count as 4. (Also possibly capped at 2. Maybe upped to 3 if two Zealots have this aura.) That way it doesn’t benefit only the Zealot.
It could be renamed to something like “Together in Spirit” or “Kinship” or “Brotherhood” or “Eternal Bond” to emphasize still being part of a team even when the team is further away, or dead, as opposed to “Loner.”
I think the Loner Zealot should always count as having a value of two people in coherency, both for himself and others around him, but then put a hard cap of only Max 4 coherency bonus for the team (so it cannot reach 5 with him around)
Another thought, I have no idea if Loner actually promotes the behavior of people running off without their teams, but I remember the first time I read that name and description I certainly thought it might do that. If nothing else, it shouldn’t promote the idea that it promotes that behavior.
and yeah if it does indeed promote that behavior then it shouldn’t.
Just had another thought, perhaps Loner would instead make Coherency bonus linger for a set duration after leaving the team, but still force you to return to it to refresh that bonus.