A potential way to improve the player experience, new players in particular

Pretty much as I said in the linked post: it would help a lot if players had access to an in-game source of information and explanation for the various mechanics at work in vermintide especially since a lot of what we engage with in the game is not explained and most players are typically forced to rely on community guides and explanations (which aren’t always correct).

Having to rely on what has effectively become a guru culture in the community to understand how a game works at a base level is something I find a lot of players have trouble with, especially the players who are fresh to the game and not hooked into the community. It would help ease a lot of confusion and that feeling of being “lost”, even for more seasoned players.

What do y’all think?

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Difficult. Personally, I find it has a certain charm to find out stuff itself and don’t use build guides as there is a lot of wrong information there.

But it certainly would elevate the game and increase accessibility if there was some in-game “codex” which explains certain mechanics in an understandable way without going too deep in the subjective territory. But it probably would have to be started and made by player effort and proof-readed by FS which also add some finishing touches like animations, graphics etc.

Would also be kept update in case mechanics change.

Side idea: It would be cool if we could get a library (which has been suggested long ago) where this knowledge is readable. And the library would be empty at the beginning and with each tome new books/tips/mechanics/knowledge will be unlocked.

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Lohner hands you a combat manual that is located on a bookshelf which you can read “in case you’ve forgotten how to fight”, where it goes into push-attacks existing, block being 360 degrees, etc.

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Although I agree that it has its charm and very much partakes in making the game surprisingly in-depth in terms of skill progression, the “guru culture” Incan speaks of is a problem on several levels that is unfortunately not quite as openly spoken of as it should be; precisely because of its inherent nature.
It hinders new and veteran players alike and serves to create a knowledge barrier within the community that has unfortunate side effects on player interactions, be it misinformation or “toxic elitism.”

A well-curated information repository could go a long way in helping alleviate the problem, so long as it doesn’t turn into something that holds your hands. It should merely give the necessary information for you to base your decisions on - both concerning gameplay and builds -, such as how dodge windows work.

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I have been a big advocate for something like this for a while now, which i have been talking about in alot of random threads about certain events/new players objectives etc.

Make info more available, like: what does stack with what?
What stacks additivly, what multiplicativly? Make armory base game (explain things like ‘linesman and stuff’)

the keep: They can add SO much to the keep, i actually think they are missing so much of opportunity, the only thing that gets used is dummy/jumping puzzle/chest area and portal, everything else can be accessed by keybinds (i never have to visit the forge), they could better dummies aswell, which instead of telling some huge number like 25k tells something like ‘1 shot kill’ or something (to make bp’s more accessible and actually show the use of 'power vs properties) (or something else, just an idea). (ofcourse toggeable, so minmaxers still get their fun)

Adding a codex is also a very good idea. Like a big book or something (or something more lore friendly idk), where certain events are explained, or bosses are explained (a bit like in mmo’s), ofcourse don’t give strategies on how to kill a boss, just give us info and let the player decide what the best way to kill it is or do an event. (so many players don’t know convocation wizards are checkpoints, for example)

Telling players they can find books in maps. the game might tell you this, but i’m not entirly sure as early game has been a while for me. Telling players doesn’t have to remove exploration, it might just be a voiceline or something.

Revamp tutorial, this might be tricky as the tutorial isn’t really a generic tutorial, it’s more a prologue to the story. and making it more like a tutorial where alot of info pops up etc might take away from the ‘feel’ of the game.

edit: Show my total stats, which means that i can see at a glance how much crit chance or power vs i have equipped. Also add loadouts. Also show us ‘hidden crit chance’, which you can only know by looking at the source code, reddit, or forum, which shouldn’t be the case.

Edit: sorry i know this was about a codex only. i’m happy to move this if you don’t wanna derail. found my old comment Time for another Community Cataclysm Playthrough

Also great post, new player experience and making info more accessible is good to bring focus to.

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they could add another room to the keep called “Lohner’s Library” or something which contains more or less an in-game wiki for all the info that new and seasoned players should know regarding mechanics such as linesman, effective dodges, block angles etc.

whilst also containing infomation that you currently get from the Armory and Bestiary mods so players can get a more holistic understanding of the game without having to rely on google searches or the local community discord big brain player or diving into the source code on github

y’know, the stuff that isn’t readily apparent from just playing the game.

If I had a dollar for every time I had to explain what linesman is and how it works I’d be living in a waterfront home in the Bahamas

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I agree wholeheartedly that having a codex or other resource that describes the mechanics of the game is necessary. I have a feeling that not many new players would use it though, at least until they start failing lots.

I also think the game would be better if recruit was eliminated entirely. The problem with it is that it is way too easy. You can lmb spam your way to success and once you have seen all the maps you could assume the ‘that’s all there is’. It’s not until the higher difficulties that combat mechanics become important and you are forced to become aware of the depth that is actually in the game. I really think that noobs would have more fun if the game was more difficult right off the bat and they had to suffer through a baptism of fire - a similar experience is what made me fall in love with Dark Souls.

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I think the more text FS adds to the game, the less coherent it all will be. Just look at their talent descriptions and even patch notes. At this point any community guide is much more trustworthy than in-game stuff because some of it has different numbers, murky phrasing or downright works not at all how described.

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This is a very important point. I honestly believe a community-written guide would be superior to FS’s own description. As creative as they are in thinking up game mechanics, just as bad they are in explaining them…

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woah this thread got nerco’d hard

anyway yeah while I don’t want to agree that FS would probably struggle to make such a thing work…yeah they’ll probably fall flat compared to community resources

After all, the gaming experience doesn’t just stop at accessibility. In any case, it is one of the main aspects that are simply not well implemented in V2, but in my opinion the game simply needs a major QoL update. I definitely agree that basic information is important and also necessary. Numerical information can be displayed with mods, but should be in the game by default in my opinion, and the same goes for tooltips information in the skill tree, bestiary or weapon compendium.

I think the biggest problem with V2 though is that it just seems like a hodgepodge of different sets (crafting, deeds, weaves, skins and hats and I don’t even want to know what great innovations the Chaos Wastes bring…). These are all systems in the game that are overcomplicated for no reason. Why wasn’t Weavecrafting used as a standard? Why this whole dust and materials system? Why can’t you change the color of hats yourself? Why do you need a new item slot for every color/skin? Why can’t you customize the dummies to what you want to test? Why do you have to make up the story from random in-game conversations (which are only available in English)? And don’t even get me started on Weaves… Somehow the common thread in terms of usability is just missing.

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Most relevant observation. This just keeps happening: The game is the game, and instead of refining existing structures FS just comes up with a new idea for something cool, which then gets tacked on with only the most minimally nescessary integration to the rest of the game. And then it gets forgotten as FS gets another cool idea, which gets the exact same treatment: Quests, Weekly Challenge Mode, Weaves, Lohner’s Emporium, etc., etc… And it feels like the core mechanics of the base game were all implemented the exact same way: Hero Power, the loot, crafting system, etc. again…

I mean, all of the things implemented by FS are by themselves quite alright, but they are always implemented in such a fickle way, and a lot of their potential is wasted as they get mercilessly abandoned after implementation. I’m exaggerating a bit here, but Vermintide became like a Stormfiend designed by 13 different Skaven engineers who never once communicated with each other. The result of a game of “Telephone”. A bunch of high quality ingredients that are all served seperately instead of being made into the 5-star dish it could be. Instead of introducing yet more new mechanics and content into the game, I wish FS would just sit down and figure out what their vision is, and meld everything they’ve got together properly first. Not because I’m not interested in what cool stuff FS’s creativity can bring next (because I honestly am!), but because it would be the best way to improve quality with relatively the least effort, and it would make implementing all the new upcoming stuff in a more satisfying way so much better as well.

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Powerful necromancy at work, poor old Kruber felt spooked to the point where he had to take an extra bottle of strong ale before heading out. Meanwhile Bardin took a barrel and it was not because he felt more unsettled than usual.

On a more serious note, in the case of the excellent fanmade guides explaining the game i honestly think Fatshark ought to just add at least sections of those into the game for those who are willing to read them.

Dont force people to, but make them available.

Copying over guides/parts of them might not be graceful or dignified but the time to raise claims of either of those was gone when the present situation arose. And its been quite some time.

Yeah but then what happens when FS changes anything in those mechanics? Should they then wait from the community to reverse-engineer and update that info too so they can copy-paste it again? That doesn’t sound like a viable strategy.

A good question, doing what i suggest would indeed cause a situation where the workload increases if Fatshark wants to change the systems again which is not ideal.

But, that or just keep leaving newbies in the dark letting them blunder on and on trying to figure things out and enduring large needless frustrations due to a lack of explanations? I honestly think Fatshark would implement guides to avoid this, if they could.

But they are too busy or lack resources.

If they haven’t abandoned the Versus mode, they still has a lot of stuff on their plate besides lowly dated VT2, so yeah - I believe leaving newbs in the dark it is. Besides, not like there is a lot of new players coming to VT2 anyway.

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A codex or text tutorial would be nice for sure. But is it really needed for a game like Vermintide?

I don’t think so. While it’s definitely a hard game to master, it’s by no means a difficult game to learn. Give any new player 20 hours with the game and they’ll understand all the fondamental mechanics. From then onward is up to them to learn more about the game’s inner workings, either online or through direct experience.

The tooltips for the trinkets/weapons don’t get updated when there’s a patch and some currently in-game give wrong information so getting an entire codex adjusted to complement patch changes is pretty much up the wazzoo.

A nice idea but it’ll be out of date after one or two patches and adds to the workload when new careers are released etc.

Might be easier to add some more in-game tips to loading screens.

“Blocking works 360 degrees, but blocking outside the weapons effective angles uses all of your stamina”

“Dodging sideways moves you a further distance than dodging backwards”

“You’re supposed to be grateful when you get hit by hagbane.”

“Healing the Zealot can make him less effective in battle.”

and so on.

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