A plea for Veteran news

[Murderer]

@Rvl

I asked you which weapons does Vet has, OTHER THAN HELLBORES, PLASMA and POWER SWORD, which are viable for high Havoc.

See, now you’re asking an actual question that I can respond to instead of just dramatically repeating my claims and saying they’re wrong.

Ranged

• bolt pistol (puncture scales incredibly well on havoc and bypasses the ranged DR modifier)
• bolter (same and I am amazed you think it’s not H40 viable, it hits fantastic breakpoints for special and elite sniping, especially with exec stance but not required)
• recon las (infernus and shocktrooper both scale incredibly well on havoc, also bypasses that mod)
• infantry las (for the same reason as recon las, just more annoying without an autoclicker)
• laspistol (same)
• double barrel shotgun (bleed + crit cleave blessing, wep specialist, uncanny strike)
• zarona revolver (wep spec and just regular surgical setup works)
• agripina revolver (bit of a meme but kills specials and shooters/gunners really well and the rest of your build can make up for how limited it is)

melee

• catachan sword (high mobility, good hordeclear, actually has an infinite cleave move and vet has great talents for this weapon to make it fast and crit a ton and also uniquely gets to kill armor with it if he goes that build)
• combat knives (obvious reasons)
• dueling sword (obvious reasons)
• non folding shovel (due to excellent hordeclear and CC and defensive capabilities and uncanny strike)

All of these are just hwat I personally know is H40 viable from having used it. It’s not exhaustive because i havent tried everything yet. These are on top of the plasma, power swords and hellbores you listed.

Which brings us to this question

@Rvl

But does Vet perform with those weapons that he shares with OTHER CLASSES better than them?

Yes, he does. Uniquely, no other class has wep spec. That makes weps that function well with auto crits and reloads function FAR better on vet than other classes. That means he uses revolvers and the shotgun far better. I’d go as far to say the double barrel shotty is only H40 viable on Vet because of how well it pairs with wep spec, uncanny shovel + bleed grenade, but I haven’t specifically tried it on zealot yet. So do you not consider this variety? It’s unique builds only vet can run.
Then there’s shocktrooper, which elevates all lasguns on vet. They still work on other classes though.
As for bolter and the bolt pistol, he makes better use of them simply because his finesse talents are more suited for special killing with them than other classes. He hits more breakpoints more easily.

As for melee weapons, it’s not as clear cut, but depending on what build you go for his melee builds will outperform zealot. Specifically the fact that he gets rending and regenerating krak grenades makes the catachan sword a lot better in his hands than in zealots, at least in my opinion.

Also, this is a bit more abstract, but Vet makes better use of uncanny strike than any other class because of shredder grenades. Just in case you don’t know, you can get them to match ogryn nuke size and kill every enemy in the game with 2-3 of them on H40, and demo team makes em come back fast. This alone means Vet can afford to specialize more when it comes to what weps he brings, which again contributes to build variety.

Finally

@Rvl

Not really, no. Because Vets ranged power comes from Exe Stance,

Absolutely untrue. Vets ranged power absolutely doesn’t “come from exec stance”, it comes from how he has multiple ranged damage nodes, precision strikes, ammo regen and shocktrooper, global 15% damage to elites and another 20% to ogryns (also a big part of why his melee is so strong), uniquely easy access to brittleness/rending which elevates some weps, aswell as a couple random ass 10-20% damage-on-ability-use talents that are basically always up because you get to just spam your ability because of all the CDR in auric maelstrom and h40.
Exec stance is very strong and lets him hit some very good H40 breakpoints, but it’s absolutely not required and even without it he has unique mechanics that let him use ranged weps like nobody else can (wep spec and shocktrooper) and just generally has the most ranged damage, besides maybe a scriers gaze psyker which is balanced out by the opportunity cost of picking it over bubble/scream

[Rvl]

Most of the weapons you listed Zealot can use as well. You completely missed the point I was trying to make. It’s not that classes CAN use these weapons. I’m asking you where did you get this notion that Vet has much more options than other classes.

combat knives (obvious reasons)
dueling sword (obvious reasons)

Better on Zealot.

catachan sword

On Vet it’s a horde clear weapon and a weapon to reposition, not a main weapon. And parry is way safer to use on Zealot than it is on Veteran. 10% rending won’t make much of a difference against elites for Catachan. Zealot can horde clear with Catachan as well, the difference is Zealot has 100% rending on FOF and autocrit which will kill specials more consitently.

he gets rending and regenerating krak grenades

Krak grenades often kill a couple of elites in the wave when there are multiple of them. Relying on them to cover the weakness of the weapon is weird. You kill 3 elites out of 10 and then you get 10 more in the next room. Kraks are worse than Frags in Havoc in every scenario but monstrosities, but it’s a whole other topic.

bolt pistol (puncture scales incredibly well on havoc and bypasses the ranged DR modifier)
zarona revolver (wep spec and just regular surgical setup works)
laspistol

All work as well on Zealot. It was “unique Vet options”, no? Which weapon here doesn’t work on Zealot as a sidearm to kill shooters and specials? Bolt pistol might be slightly better on Vet, fine.

Bolter

Slightly better on Veteran, but due to balistic ammo restrictions in Havoc you can’t use it as much to see the huge difference, unless everyone else in the team doesn’t need ammo, which doesn’t always happen in public lobbies, where people will waste ammo.

agripina revolver

It’s awful in Havoc on either classes. The only good reason to run this revolver in Auric was the fact that it killed Crusher in one fanning with 25% carapace/5% crit/crit blessing/rending on crit blessing.

On Havoc it’s a less accurate, less consistent revolver that doesn’t kill Crushers in one clip anymore, due to additional damage reduction of hidden modifiers. And even if it wasn’t, it’s better on Zealot, because they have more consistent crits.

double barrel shotgun (bleed + crit cleave blessing, wep specialist, uncanny strike)

Ok. Meme build in Havoc, whatever. Good luck killing any of the important targets in a swift manner without relying on your teammates for everything other than unarmored close ranged targets.

That means he uses revolvers and the shotgun far better.

Shotguns are like… 0 x 2 is still 0. Vet or Zealot, they have low damage, low ammo, absolutely no reason to use them in Havoc, other than if you wish to make things way more difficult.

And revolvers have limited ammo, Vet doesn’t get much more ammo than Zealot. Survivalist works for everyone on the team. Other than that Vet has more weakspot and base damage modifier, Zealot has more crits.

Both kill Trapper in one crit headshot in Havoc. Both can’t kill Flamer with one crit on Havoc anymore, due to their inflated reductions/HP. What makes the revolver so much better on Veteran then?

It’s unique builds only vet can run.

And every class has them. But Vet has more apparently and is apparently better at both melee and range than Zealot (the way you word everything here)? So Zealot is just a bad class that sucks both in ranged and melee? lol

Exec stance is very strong and lets him hit some very good H40 breakpoints

Hitting breakpoints for some ENEMIES and some WEAPONS, and sometimes when all talents line up.

THAT, or covering the universal weakness of the Veteran class which is low survivability without VOC and Stealth to a lesser extent.

[Khorne_Dawg]

@Molonious

At least as far as weapons go, I’m cool with no new weapons, there’s already more in the game than I’ll ever really play consistently

Because a huge chunk of our arsenal is bloat. We’re still missing key Weapon types like Polearms, other Two-Handeds, Dual Wields, etc. and therefore it’s nowhere near enough.

I just don’t see why they had to make Chainaxes, Combat Axes AND Tac Axes, to name a few of the MANY examples. Just make Chainaxes and Power Axes then move on with some PROPER Weapons like Power Halberds and such.

[Murderer]

@Rvl

Ok. Meme build in Havoc, whatever. Good luck killing any of the important targets in a swift manner without relying on your teammates for everything other than unarmored close ranged targets.

I’m tired of you flippantly not reading what I write so I really just wanna make an example of this: What do you figure the uncanny strike is for?

[Rvl]

Every class has a role outlined by how they’re designed and balanced.

Zealot and Ogryn → classes that excel as melee frontliners that either DPS or crowdcontrol.
Vet and Psyker → classes that excel as backline support or DPS.

There’s player choice of course, but to say that Ogryn or Zealots are as good to kill shooters as Vet is kinda mad. You can play melee Vet or Psyker, but on average, if you consider all options, they have lower survivability than Zealot and Ogryn in melee which get punished less for their mistakes made against melee enemies and have better abilities to get out of these situations.

[Rvl]

I’m reading everything, but it’s hard to keep every little detail in mind and respond to everything, so I try my best to reply to every part.

Uncanny on the melee weapon while running double barrel? You said you’re playing with shovel. Even with decimator, it takes forever to kill each armored special. Or you can get Duelling Sword with uncanny, and in that case this build works. The problem is, on its own, double barrel is awful.

Yes, you can shred grenade the elite waves and finish them off with a shovel. That’s how I play too. But double barrel is what, 10% power of the build here? It does nothing other weapons don’t do much better, and has so many weaknesses. I can kill specials and elites quicker with las pistol at any range. It has no range, in fact.

Double barrel is a disgrace in this game. I disagree it’s a viable weapon on any class.

[Murderer]

@Rvl

Uncanny on the melee weapon while running double barrel? You said you’re playing with shovel. Even with decimator, it takes forever to kill each armored special. Or you can get Duelling Sword with uncanny, and in that case this build works.

There’s your expert on veteran weaponry. Nice talk but I’ll take my leave, I’m not interested in discussing this with someone who doesn’t actually know what he’s talking about. Embarrassing, but I’ll say it checks out that you’re saying Vet has no variety, you simply don’t know his weps.

[Rvl]

Yeah, highlighting one thing I didn’t understand about your post surely makes your case. XD

[Murderer]

You’re digging that hole deeper. The veteran shovel has uncanny strike, as you would know if you actually were informed about the things you’re trying to lecture me about.
I’ll just quote you one last time and leave

@Rvl

This is very disingenious. So disingenious it is, in fact, borderline callous.

[Rvl]

Nah, the only embarassing thing is that you make outrageous claims like Vet is the best melee class, based on one build that works under perfect conditions, or that he has more options when I’ve proven that every other human class has as many builds. And that Zealot can use pretty much most of weapons that Vet does to the same level of success.

I just told you I use shovel in Havoc 40 runs, yes, I know Vet has it lmao. Does it magically make Double Barrel 100% better?

Then you quote a sentence you didn’t like and make this your ultimate checkmate. XD

[Rvl]

I guess uncanny strike suddenly gives double barrel the range it needs, the damage it needs when it doesn’t even twoshot some specials and mutants unless it’s pointblank. Not to mention all the ammo you’re gonna waste killing stuff like Maulers and Armored Ragers in Havoc, unless you tell me that you melee shovel every single Mauler and Rager in absence of kraks/shredders.

I’ve given my reasoning, you chose to ignore everything I’ve said about “unique options that only Vet has access to”.

[harlekein]

@gpkgpk

Just to clarify, Brutal Mom won’t work at all on Ogryns, changed back in Oct '24.

What the actual Frak?

[gpkgpk]

I’m mistaken, it was Summer '24 in v1.4 Secrets of the MaChine God.

@FatsharkStrawHat

Talent and Blessing Tweaks

Dev Note: This is part of ongoing prep work we are carrying out for itemization as we rebalance existing weapon blessings. We are curious to collect player thoughts and feedback as we continue optimizing.

• ‘Brutal Momentum’ weapon blessing: Removed Ogryns as possible enemies whose Hit Mass can be ignored.

Dev Note: The ‘Brutal Momentum’ blessing paired with powerful Strikedown attacks (like the special activated attack on Ogryn folding shovels) led to possible one-hit kills on multiple stacked Ogryn-type enemies, like Crushers. This expanded too much out of the single target nature of those Strikedown attacks, and also made Strikedown weapons which did not have access to the blessing to feel comparatively less useful in situations where they should have excelled.

Prior to that it was :

local melee_infinite_cleave_on_headshot = buff_extension:has_keyword(buff_keywords.melee_infinite_cleave_on_headshot)
	amount_of_mass_hit = current_amount_of_mass_hit + target_hit_mass * (action_armor_hit_mass_mod or 1)

[Wahid]

@Enclave

desert raiders,

---

Cries in Tallarn

[Wahid]

@Khorne_Dawg

Because a huge chunk of our arsenal is bloat. We’re still missing key Weapon types like Polearms, other Two-Handeds, Dual Wields, etc. and therefore it’s nowhere near enough.

---

Las-Carbine, Khalig Sword (the heavy sword is a bad imitation), Plasma Pistol, Long-Las, Power Fist, authentic Tallarn Desert Raiders cosmetics, and genuine WH40K equipment!

Pickaxes? GTFO of here… we’re in the 40.000 millenium, and 40K has some really cool weapons for humans, but there’s very little of it in Darktide.

---

[Molonious]

So I’m of two minds on this.

There’s definitely, absolutely, a lot of unneccessary bloat. Stuff like the axes as you noted, and we didn’t need 18 different guns made out of the basic S3 AP0 R24" Rapid Fire tabletop statline.

On the other hand, when looking at actual GW models for things like Guard troopers, Inquisitorial Henchmen, Frateris Militia, Sanctioned Psykers, Ogryn, etc, we really do generally have most expected weapons. The 40k universe has lots of weapons, but many of them just aren’t the sort of thing our protagonists are going to get their hands on. Polearms and Halberds for example are seen on Grey Knights and some high ranking Sororitas Celestians, but there are no Guard models with Halberds or Polearms, while there’s a single Inquisitorial Henchmen with one, that got released after Darktide launched. Likewise I think there’s only ever been two Guard models with Power Axes, a Commissar from 1996 and the soon to be released Commissar in Minka Lesk’s limited-run command squad, and no Inquisition models that I can recall sport a Power Axe. Similarly with two handed weapons in general, looking at those same sets of models, they’re relatively rare, largely being the Relic Sword (from the Crusader models) and Eviscerators (from Sororitas Repentia and Ecclesiarchal Preacher models) that we have in game. The Thunder Hammer is really the only outlier there, that should have been a Powerfist if anything, Thammers are rare even for Space Marines but relatively low level Guard officers and even noncoms can be seen with Powerfists.

The pistol/melee weapon unit-leader dual wield loadout is the big thing missing to me, though I’m not sure if that’s a Fatshark issue or a problem with the fact that trying to effectively dual wield a pistol and melee weapon outside tabletop fantasy context or movie scene tends to break pretty quickly, dual-wielding in general really has this issue in most representations.

[Wahid]

@Molonious

The pistol/melee weapon unit-leader dual wield loadout is the big thing missing to me, though I’m not sure if that’s a Fatshark issue or a problem with the fact that trying to effectively dual wield a pistol and melee weapon outside tabletop fantasy context or movie scene tends to break pretty quickly, dual-wielding in general really has this issue in most representations.

---

I’m curious about this as well because Saltzpyre in Vermintide 2 can dual wield a rapier and a pistol, and being able to dual wield is something that I associate with both Astartes and humans in 40k.

[SgtHavelock]

To add to the list of expected weapons, we lack Melta and Hel/Hot-shot weapons, but I would also love to dual-wielded weapons melee+sidearm combos. Plus - I really want to say ‘we need’ but its my personal obsession - I long for a Power Sword with the Relic Blade’s mechanics but in the styling of Guard-aesthetic Power Swords.

@Molonious

while there’s a single Inquisitorial Henchmen with one, that got released after Darktide launched.

Just as a clarification, and forgive me for doing so but I’ve a lot of affection for the minis involved, that miniature from the Inquisitorial Agents box is a re-work of the original Sergeant Stone ‘Gland Wars’ veteran from Inquisitor 54mm. They seem to be bringing a couple of those old designs back, which is great because some are really excellent minis and Inquisitor 54mm has a special place in my heart.

[Khorne_Dawg]

@Molonious

there are no Guard models with Halberds or Polearms, while there’s a single Inquisitorial Henchmen with one, that got released after Darktide launched

Even if we completely ignore both minis and established lore, there’s a literal Traitor Guard Enemy (Scab Mauler) in Darktide who uses a Heavy Chainaxe, which is a Chain Bardiche (i.e. a Polearm) in actuality.

[Molonious]

@Wahid

I’m curious about this as well because Saltzpyre in Vermintide 2 can dual wield a rapier and a pistol, and being able to dual wield is something that I associate with both Astartes and humans in 40k.

My VT2 experience is limited, so I haven’t gotten to play duel wield Saltzpyre, I should see how they implemented that.

Coming from a HEMA background, and having done some sword/buckler and sword/dagger, two handed weapon combos are insanely awkward. Your arms get in the way of each other, and biomechanically you can really only focus and power a single attack at a time, so the way the buckler or dagger typically works is as a shield/deflector for your hands as you strike with the sword, and not as a distinct separate attack avenue.

40k art and models has lots of people running around with a gun in one hand and a sword in the other or two daggers or whatnot but they’re not typically truly “dual wielding” them, rather they’re essentially just ambidextrously holding two weapons that they swap between (e.g. they’ll shoot at someone with their pistol and then turn around and swing a blade at someone else)

@SgtHavelock

Just as a clarification, and forgive me for doing so but I’ve a lot of affection for the minis involved, that miniature from the Inquisitorial Agents box is a re-work of the original Sergeant Stone ‘Gland Wars’ veteran from Inquisitor 54mm. They seem to be bringing a couple of those old designs back, which is great because some are really excellent minis and Inquisitor 54mm has a special place in my heart.

Oh that’s cool, Inquisitor was one of those games that came out when I was in high school and by the time I had money and the ability to get into 40k as an undergrad Inquisitor was already a semi-retired line that was in the process of being shut down.

@SgtHavelock

we lack Melta and Hel/Hot-shot weapons,

Meltas are a weapon that I think would need a niche created for them that doesn’t currently exist. They’re really good at killing big things, but the biggest things in Darktide are essentially just beefy infantry (renegade guard captains, plague ogryn, etc), we don’t have anything in the game yet that a Melta would truly be able to shine against (like a tank or daemon engine), and as a result feels like it’d just end up a shorter ranged Plasma gun with half the rate of fire if adapted faithfully. SM2 got around this by entirely reimagining how Melta weapons function and having them be a cone attack area effect weapon, but that doesn’t feel like something Darktide would do.

@Khorne_Dawg

Even if we completely ignore both minis and established lore, there’s a literal Traitor Guard Enemy (Scab Mauler) in Darktide who uses a Heavy Chainaxe, which is a Chain Bardiche (i.e. a Polearm) in actuality.

Aye, they do have them, though Axes in general are also much more common with Chaos forces/ models for whatever reason. Same way Chaos traitor guard/cultists units and models can run Heavy Stubbers but Guard Infantry Squads can’t (though can take stuff like Plasma Guns, so we do have those). I don’t hate the idea of polearms or other 2 handed weapons, but if FS is sticking largely to stuff found on Loyalist Guard and Inquisition models/units for player weapons (which is what I’m guessing they’re doing given what we’ve seen so far), I can see why they haven’t included some of the more iconic or impressive weapons the 40k universe has to offer, with the previously mentioned Thunderhammer being the big weird standout.