Back when I played WoW, this is 20 years ago mind you, most of the fun I had was with the guild on team speak.
I realize with all the changes MMO’s went through raids are no longer done with guilds, you just queue up. Nothing social about that. Same with Havoc, unless you are on a cozy Discord and everyone talks to each other. I don’t have time for that anymore.
All I do is play party finder with randoms, i don’t have h40 premades. You still can communicate, strategize and socialise with randoms, I’ve played enough so that I have some familiar faces.
Generally I kinda feel like your attitude towards socialising after a loss might be an issue, just because you describe it that way.
I mean, all players usually lose some h40 runs. As with meta builds it’s not (all meta) or (no meta at all). It’s something in between.
If ppl play enough h40, they want to see if they can overcome the challenge in different ways. This will be pretty random because everyone picks the build for themselves, but if all 4 ppl are not policing the teamcomp, you just eventually end up playing further and further away from the meta just to see what’s there.
And you will have some lose streaks, but you will also have some win streaks. There’s a ton of variables and randomness.
now here’s the thing.
getting into a guild usually you had a honeymoon phase of a couple days/weeks where everyone sniffed each others backside to find common interest/ground
yep age of conan had me play “with” certain people.
but, darktide being a game where players are disposable after 30 minutes there’s hardly a second encounter or necessary interaction.
add to that while I’m fluent with english for the most part I prefer german when trash talking and i certainly ain’t talkative when concentrated on clutching a match.
something about being hyper focused on the game and not wanting to translate every word while busy.
so I don’t get along verbally with strangers that aint used to harsh, short, precise callouts and cussing.
and I dont plan on sugarcoating or maneuvering around “Befindlichkeiten” when playing the game to the max of my abilities.
second even getting common english conversation, accents across europe are all over the place, that in itself is rather off putting having to second guess sometimes and get distracted from what’s going on in the game.
and no I don’t want to know aunt “something something” broke her hip last week as additional info when trying for small talk, thank you 
well, so far peeps left as they played, without a word, even if I wanted to there’s little to communicate with 
now granted it’s been a rather self fulfilling prophecy with each party mutually agreeing to not “waste” further playtime with this non-clicking composition.
those matches that did work, did so without a single word as well, so there’s that.
I simply prefer not to.
the game usually offers tools for awareness that so far have been enough for each havoc “season” to make it to 40.
the ease of just doing my thing in auric maelstrom I find more appealing, being the master of my own fate to a much larger degree.
apart from my buddies, hearing unfamiliar voices ingame, it somehow spoils the immersion and motivation to a degree like the veteran with a french or spanish accent.
like no dude, you’re that ingame character for all I care not “jaque” trying to be funny bantering off topic.
This is a large reason why I can’t play MMO’s these days (don’t have anyone to play them with) and don’t play darktide/DRG/HD2 without at least one other person I know. Playing these games solo is such a weird experience, your frustration level with people spikes, and it’s much more ragey. Something going wrong with pals is a “oh man that was hilarious you totally got mulched there bro!” moment, but with randos always turns out to be a “wtf were you doing, idiot!” thing.
No hate on it, but I genuinely do not get the “quickplay” slapping solo crowd. That feels like the most butthurt-inducing way to play this game.
This is by far the worst Havoc has ever been. It’s a slog. It’s not enjoyable. It’s just a war of attrition against your patience, doesn’t matter what class you play. I’d rather play Auric, which got better but we are still too strong for it and gets crushed.
99% of my frustration with randos would be mitigated if the game explained, and any of the mods that showed how ammo crates work, were in the base experience.
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First of all, I really appreciate your post. Your summary is very detailed and expresses the thoughts of a large portion of Hong Kong server players. Based on my own experience, any casual player with over 500 hours of gameplay can relatively easily clear Havoc at around level 20 with friends, even if their skills aren’t exceptional.
I’m a casual player with 700 hours, and when I’m not too busy, I often play Darktide with friends.
The following points are mainly based on my and my friends’ gameplay experiences and may vary from person to person:
Auric Maelstrom on Malice (Difficulty 5) no longer provides a challenge for players: The combat feel in Darktide is incredibly intense, and many players enjoy the excitement it brings. For me, even with a Lucius Lasgun, Auric Maelstrom on Malice is quite easy. Therefore, I prefer playing Havoc at around level 20, as this stage of the game offers a challenging experience. (So, don’t ask me, “Why not lower the difficulty?” When you’re familiar with a game, trying a higher difficulty is, in my opinion, fun for everyone.)
What kind of game is Darktide for players?: In Squad, players achieve victory through precise tactics; in Rainbow Six Siege, players win with their strategies and aim. For me, Darktide is a game where I can wield weapons to slay enemies, bathe in blood, and experience a sense of exhilaration. Thus, I have higher expectations for a smooth and satisfying experience. A good example is the nerf to the Power Sword in a previous version, which made it unable to maintain high attack power after being hit. This change increased the difficulty of using the Power Sword, leading many players to switch to the Dueling Sword. However, even now, the Power Sword remains a very powerful weapon and is almost the only choice for Veterans in high-difficulty gameplay. Similarly, I’ve adapted to the new game mechanics, but the demands on players have become much higher than before. Another similar game is Helldivers 2. At launch, it had a large player base, but Arrowhead frequently nerfed weapons, making the gameplay experience frustrating for players. It wasn’t until stronger weapons were introduced that I felt motivated to play again. That said, I don’t think all of Fatshark’s nerfs are misguided. For instance, while the Power Sword nerf initially disappointed me, I now find it acceptable.
Not all players have perfect coordination: I often see many players in the community consider the Psyker to be a meta class, but this comes with a prerequisite: the player must have flawless fundamentals and support from teammates. Otherwise, in the hands of many players, the Psyker’s survivability is quite concerning. This is especially true in Havoc difficulty, where teamwork is even more crucial (perhaps due to translation issues, I don’t quite understand players who say, “I can’t accept playing as a support role to complete a game.” In our community, this is considered meaningful, and many players praise support players). I don’t want to feel exhausted during casual play because my teammates, while using off-meta weapons, keep dying and causing the mission to fail (the issue isn’t with off-meta weapons but with repeatedly dying. I’ve encountered many skilled off-meta weapon players, and I greatly respect them).
These are just my simple observations from 700 hours of gameplay. There might be some bias, but to summarize my viewpoint: Don’t constantly nerf classes or weapons. If you must nerf something, please buff other weapons to bring them to a similar level. For example, the Boltgun and Plasma Gun each have their own strengths, but in the hands of a skilled player, both can be effective. However, if you ask someone of the same skill level to clear Havoc with an Infantry Lasgun, it becomes significantly more difficult.（This post was written with the assistance of translation, so I apologize if there are any parts that feel unnatural or unclear.）
Well said my international friend. I’m. Havoc 40 Vet that only plays high havoc usually 40 unless I’m helping someone. I am on console haha so I find it very challenging with the nerfs but fun of course. Here we don’t have any preset teams like 2 Vets. So it’s a bit wild and more chaotic. They definitely need to balance havoc differently but unfortunately their goal is to pump out a new class so the less balancing they do the better for them. If havoc was a priority for them they’d have fixed the Blue Eyes Stim glitch already that’s been there since Stims got released. They don’t balance the blue stim damage reduction either or it’s stagger resistance. Or how healing and rotten or healing and stim stacks haha. We’re kinda on our own. I hope we do get at least the glitches fixed. And I fully support you guys for getting word out here. Let’s hope we get some changes.
and here’s exactly the point and maybe it indeed is a cultural thing or rather a premade one, I dont know.
BUT being able to carry a match, succeed where others failed through no other means but my own THAT is what drives me forward and motivates continuing playing the game.
if I had a fixed meta with all known variables it’d be pointless cause I knew I didn’t do it in my own, it was an amalgamation of 4 elements mandator(ily?) needed to even get through.
I cooperate towards a successful outcome no doubt but I dont count the input of the team as a success of my own.
so in that regard playing support, literally submitting to the appearant “needs” of others doesn’t sit well with me if that means I can’t play to my full potential and need to hold back in playstyle.
and I admit it, I’m not an altruistic team player, never was.
the fact we “cooperate” doesn’t mean I play it to the point as to change my whole approach, knowing I can do better under other circumstances.
havoc has numbers stacked against what a single player can deal out or take in damage and health, attrition is always against you, soloing havoc would involve a tremendous amount of avoiding engagements and trying to skip ahead through the game as fast as possible.
now on the other hand 3 peeps on the floor and still getting the game done by playing it “normally”, something auric maelstrom allows for (though characters still are too powerful right now to make that mode feel like pre-havoc) that is something one can say he’s done something afterward worth of recognition and
if players are down, I pick em up, if hurt I heal, if dry I drop or click ammo.
but I will not change how I play the game (to a far less appealing degree) to make ends meet.
if that means havoc isnt for me (so far except for this one I’ve done every season to 40) so be it
and maybe its really a cultural thing when in china you’re surrounded by countless people and need to interact with em one way or the other on a daily basis.
around here we nod our neighbor behind his fence and are “glad” we don’t need to talk with each other and get left alone.
same with playing online, real life friends are exactly that, true buddies proven through decades.
and while I don’t “dislike” randoms unless they are an ass i’m “indifferent” and cooperate within the games essential means rather than go out of my way and socialize with “jaque” or “ramon”
at the core its a
“I need to improve”
VS
“I need better people”
and the only reason I keep playing is to get better at it.
For weapons, nearly every class of weapons has received buffs after initial introduction. Every major update there are weapon buffs. Meanwhile the number of weapon nerfs can be counted on one hand. The situation is not one of constant nerfs.
My perspective on balance is pretty heavily influenced by MOBAs (DotA 2 specifically). Major balance updates happen quarterly and major game mechanic updates happen about once per year. In the balance updates generally the strongest heroes and items of the patch receive nerfs and the underutilized or weak ones get buffs. The balance shifts and new metas emerge and it keeps the game interesting even over a decade later. The goal isn’t perfect balance (with the amount of complexity it seems impossible) but good enough balance that is engaging and fun.
So when I see buffs and nerfs in DT, it’s a signal to try new things, formulate new builds and playstyles, etc. But without nerfing the strongest, safest, most reliable things people will not really have a reason to not run meta. What changes would make the infantry lasgun competitive with the plasma gun in Havoc(while being bounded by the 40k universe lore and not changing the PG)? What about Exec Stance vs Shout? There will always be relative power imbalances between weapons and abilities due to their design and what the game gives us in terms of challenges. Having team-wide gold toughness every <30s will simply be better on average than a damage steroid ability. If you want to narrow the gap between two abilities or weapons or classes, if you want to actually affect the meta, you have to be able to rein things in as well.
Ultimately, for the longevity and health of the game, balance should flow in both directions. If the game becomes essentially solved and the best things are always the best things, I’ll eventually stop playing because the major draw of the game for me (the combat) becomes stale. Having balance changes more frequently creates significantly more playtime for the investment from FS (for me) than any level or class they could add to the game.
Obviously, PVP balance and PVE balance are different because in PVP the overpowered thing is being used against the player.
One thing that makes the balance changes a little more transparent in MOBAs is that there is a wealth of publically available tracking information. For DOTA, all matches have their replays downloaded and analyzed and tons of metrics are pulled. So when a strong thing feels strong in game, there is often empirical data that supports this claim. We lack that in DT and instead rely on a ton of ancedata.
Another thing is that in PVP, a 50% winrate would be considered well-balanced. What is the equivalent in a PVE game? Probably relative winrates when compared to other classes/loadouts? What is the expected winrate of a Havoc 40?
The best thing about the balance changes in the hotfix? The amount of levelheaded and interesting discussion it’s generated. The changes are overall pretty minor imo, but have brought more people bringing their thoughts into the discussion at a time when there is not much else going on in the game.
I can tell that you are very confident in your abilities. I’m quite curious about how you manage to complete the Havoc 40 under such circumstances. If possible, I’d love it if you could send me a video for me to appreciate. I rarely play as an Ogryn.
well for the other seasons I did it with randoms as full health ogryn, no voice no nothing.
the more it reverts to a mandatory talent slog though, I opt out in favor of doing 10 auric maelstrom videos in the time it took to get one havoc 40 public match, so I rather spend my energy there.
here’s another random havoc 40 from last season.
Ex Wow Guild master here from the early days ( decent enough to be in the top ten progress wise on our server at the time) - totally agree the amount of organisational effort was unreal having to micro manage a team of people into specific builds and gear ( sometimes boss specific ) …. I was having more team meetings with my guild vs work at times !! Part of the enjoyment of Havoc was that it gave me the same feeling of achievement without the level of admin in what is supposed to be a recreational activity ! I worked hard to get to 40 in season one … PUGed my way through entirely ….. but season by season it’s got worst and the good time vs poor experience is much reduced .
Not to take away anything from you, but boss dmg usually comes down to whoever hits it the most, as dumb as that sounds.
I will usually end up with least, not because I do the least, but because someone has to kill everything else while my pugs hyperfocus bosses
Clearly not skilled enough? /saracasm
I represent the secret Havoc community. We call ourselves: “We should not need a narrow, hyper-optimised builds to play Havoc40 and enjoy it, dear Sweden”. 
Nerf the 1% outliers Fatshark, and then think about rebalancing Havoc difficulty scaling and modifiers. Some of this stuff is just comes across as extremely LAZY. We are getting into the position you not only hurt 90% of the game content for majority of Havoc players, but you hurt your own lifehood. Replayability and playstyle variety should be the king(s), and seriously considered as you do any balance changes.
I mean yeah of course it works that way
Just saying that a good Zealot build can do both support and very quick (very important) high boss damage, meanwhile others would take a lot more (unless vet cuz he’s OP af and a similar build would do a lot better than Zealot), Zealot is not by any definition “bad” in Havoc at all, he’s good
Chorus is still the second best ulti indeed.
