Differing perspectives on balance stem directly from differences in gaming philosophy

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
1

I am a player from the Asia server. In the previous Cataclysm season, due to schedule constraints, I played on the European server and climbed from Tier 30 to Tier 40. I believe I have developed a relatively good understanding of both servers, so I would like to offer a brief introduction to the gaming philosophy of the Asia server.

(The content below is translated by AI; please excuse any inaccuracies in the translation. I apologize for any potential misunderstanding.)

First, I have to admit that my experience on the EU server significantly deepened my understanding of how to handle ranged enemies and Specials. However, looking at it objectively, a Cataclysm run on the EU server averages about an hour, whereas on the Asia server, a match typically takes around 40 minutes. Relatively speaking, playing Cataclysm on the Asia server feels much more efficient and “relaxed.”

This brings us to the first major difference: Asia server players tend to lean heavily towards “Meta” builds in public matches (Quickplay) to maximize the success rate and lower the difficulty. The reason behind this is that in China, free time is scarce. Many people just want to squeeze in one Cataclysm run after work to maintain their Tier 40 status. Even those with plenty of time will use Meta builds out of consideration for the needs of others. Of course, when playing with friends, they still experiment with whatever builds they enjoy.

Because of this, Tier 40 on the Asia server isn’t seen as an “Elite-only Endgame.” In fact, the real “Endgame” for Asia players is Duo Cataclysm 40—that is the true proof of skill. If you can clear it as a duo, you’re considered a pro. Clearing it with a 4-man squad is seen as a task achievable by average players (consequently, no one boasts about being a master just for clearing 4-man T40).

There are two reasons for this mindset: First, Asia players believe in the power of teamwork; if four people coordinate well, they should be able to clear T40 even if their individual mechanics aren’t top-tier. Second, there’s a belief that modes rewarding high amounts of materials should be accessible to the majority. True “pro-only” challenges should reward things like Titles to prove skill, rather than essential progression materials. Since Tier 40 provides a massive amount of resources that make character progression much easier, it is viewed as a “must-clear” mode for everyone.

Ultimately, the gaming philosophies of Asia and EU servers are simply different, not out of arrogance, but out of necessity. These differences are exactly why the two communities often disagree on game balance.

2

Its not only cultural. You also have meta power fantasy players, off meta i like dark soils players, casuals etc.

Discussions often doesn’t take that into account.

but whats even worse is if a difficulty setting is considered as set in stone.

Example: nerfs make havoc40 more difficult.

  • true, but the ai director could be adjusted to spawn less elites, so performance becomes less of an issue for once.
3

There are indeed many sources of such differences, but at least I believe the main factor is still culture.

When I first started playing Darktide, people in the game community voluntarily helped new players like us beat Havoc 40 to get upgrade materials. Whenever we asked how to perform better in Havoc 40, the most common answer we heard was: what role your class should fulfill in the team.

Nowadays, I have less and less free time to play Darktide, but everyone understands each other’s desire to clear the missions.

I think the best solution for balance adjustments is to lower the difficulty of Havoc 40, and then introduce a Havoc 50 difficulty that gives no material rewards at all — only titles.

In addition, when Fatshark nerfs certain weapons, they should reveal future plans for buffing other weapons so that players can trust Fatshark’s balancing is ultimately meant to give players more build options.

Right now, Fatshark’s nerfing behavior feels more like telling players how to play the game to the Asian server community — for example, nerfing the bulwark shield just to increase the usage rate of the square shield.

4

every single patch theyve done this
there have always been far more buffs than nerfs every single time, sometimes only buffs
its actually the exact reason why duelling sword is the way it is now, it was one of the worst melees in the game and then got some buffs in a patch and then became one of the best from that alone. i personally am looking forward to using the infantry lasgun in havoc 40 on executioners stance vet with these new changes.

another big thing is, if the strongest things are brought more in line with everything else, then the enemies can be nerfed, and their count can be reduced, indirectly buffing every build and playstyle because the game isnt having to accommodate for how strong the best of the best is vs everything else. this directly increases build variety, because the strong stuff is still strong, and everything else now can have their own fair chance against these nerfed enemies. its always been a lot more fun to kill a couple elites in a fight rather than a couple dozen, and going back to that by bringing the highest denominator down, along with the enemy balance that was in place to combat that, can increase how fun the game is to play for all builds and increase all of their viability.

6

While Fatshark is indeed buffing weapons, from the perspective of Havoc 40, these buffs haven’t addressed the critical issues—they’re just trivial tweaks, at least that’s how players on the Asian servers see it.

For example, from a Havoc difficulty standpoint, if Fatshark truly wants to balance the Bulwark Shield and the Round Shield, it should at least make the Bulwark Shield block the Plague Ogryn’s vomit when placed properly. Furthermore, the Bulwark Shield lacks a clear unique advantage over the Round Shield. Fatshark should adjust the stagger probability of melee enemies passing through the Bulwark Shield’s area to make its strengths more distinct.

7

The increased rewards don’t make progression easier - they make it faster. Playing H40 makes the progression harder, not easier. You also mention people wanting to keep their H40 title.

Both of those points imply players seeking the greatest possible rewards for the least-possible time playing. Or, in other words, that Havoc is work. Something you wouldn’t do if it wasn’t for the payment.

That’s not different from Western players here. Most seem to describe it as a chore.

I suggest that FS sponsor an online support group for players of all skill levels, worldwide, who find themselves compelled to play DT games they don’t really want to. Therapy could include playing DT games just for fun. There could be special sessions on how to cope, day to day, with not having a H40 title.

I worry about all of you. I really do.

IMO what should be advocated for is a much quicker progression. I think it’s fair to characterize the current progression system as a series of imposed restrictions until at last, at level 30 and with a hefty cache of crafting supplies, players can finally start playing the “real” game.

If all the developers can do to keep a player engaged is deny access to gameplay, the devs don’t deserve to keep them.

(OTOH, helping less-experienced or lower-skilled players through a difficult mission sounds like a blast. It’d be good for FS to provide something to make such matchmaking easy.)

9

Good first post, thank you for sharing your views on the game.

The reason behind this is that in China, free time is scarce. Many people just want to squeeze in one Cataclysm run after work to maintain their Tier 40 status. Even those with plenty of time will use Meta builds out of consideration for the needs of others. Of course, when playing with friends, they still experiment with whatever builds they enjoy.

And that’s great people respect other’s time. I’ve seen a lot of EU players who go to Havoc to practice builds, clearly lacking experience from auric lobbies to perform well with them.

While I do like playing off-meta and I like when people play off-meta together, many of those abilities and weapons might feel week in Havoc, because it was clearly designed around having certain things on the team, aka having a designated “boss killer” on the team, or having a source of gold toughness and/or bubble to have teamwide protection.

The reality of random lobbies is that most people even with Havoc 40 title rely on stuff like that, and not having enough boss damage on the team can often lead to bosses not dying fast enough and wiping the team, or shooters just decimating everyone at range without a chance to close in on them if you don’t have meta support abilities.

While there’s a small percentage of players who can form strong premades and win without a single meta ability like that on the team, I don’t think balancing the game around their experience is the right call.

10

I have a lot of questions to ask, what is considered a “character progression” for Asian players? What is a goal of darktide players?
You get enough resources to craft every single meta weapon after 2 weeks of rewards, and if havoc 40 is considered an “average gamer” achievement, why do people even want to keep their havoc 40 title? To help others clear that progression? To spam craft weapons so you have weapon masteries cleared? If havoc 40 is nothing, does anyone even care about penances?

Its pretty wild to see havoc 40 duo clearers as “the pros”, people have to be INSANELY good to do it with limited time to play, while Europe players would mostly consider it a masochistic time sink, do Asian players go for it because its the only actual achievement to do in the game?
Is there really such an influx of players that they need those resources, because, as funny as it is, i don’t think anyone on EU grinded havocs specifically to get more resources, the moment you hit havoc 30-35 you will already have every meta build you could need to clear havocs.

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Good post overall

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That won’t fix anything. Your casual gamer that plays one game per night after work will still think that they are entitled to beat H50 and will continue to complain that can’t beat games at the highest difficulty level. There is no appeasing them.

13

and adding a title, or anything at all, only furthers the idea

14

You need an infinite number of difficulty levels. It’s impossible to sincerely consider yourself one of the top 10 best players (not in the top 10%, but literally among the ten best players) by playing only once a day. Then it will get easier, I guess

15

Another thing is, Havoc 40 is supposed to be an achievement, so why nerfs are wrong if its considered an “average gamer experience” in Asia? Why game shouldn’t be harder for meta if havoc means nothing? Or you tell me people grind out weapons and then go and try duo play after 50 hours in darktide?
Wouldn’t nerfing meta specifically, bring more challenge to game actual highest barely balanceable difficulty and make its titles and costumes feel more rewarding? No longer you just team steamroll through every havoc because your plasma or bubble or pickpocket stopped being brainless spam tools at least to some degree

16

And then its meta slog until its unbeatable which makes it even worse for game variety.

18

I don’t know if something got lost in translation, but let me clarify what I mean.

On the Asian server, only beating Cataclysm Floor 40 in two-player mode proves you’re a skilled player. That’s what everyone agrees on. If everyone just uses meta builds, clearing Cataclysm 40 alone isn’t that hard.

People play this PVE grind game for more reasons than just being good. Some play just to have fun and feel powerful. And the truth is, most players on the Asian server haven’t even tried two-player clears.

Playing two-player is basically a self-imposed challenge to raise the difficulty. Every player looking to improve sets some kind of self-restriction to test themselves. And for Darktide players, the ultimate honor — the end goal of that self-challenge — is clearing Cataclysm Floor 40 with just two people.

20

Playing two-player is basically a self-imposed challenge to raise the difficulty. Every player looking to improve sets some kind of self-restriction to test themselves. And for Darktide players, the ultimate honor — the end goal of that self-challenge — is clearing Cataclysm Floor 40 with just two people.And a small group of Asian players pursue this simply because it is an undeniable symbol of skill.And a small subset of Asian players pursue duo clears only because it is an undeniable symbol of skill, while the majority don’t see it that way and have no desire to prove themselves as pros

Staying at Floor 40 of Cataclysm gives you the right to create your own room when you have more time to play this mode. Once you reach Floor 40, you no longer drop tiers upon failure, so you’ll be more willing to take on harder modifiers. Random matchmaking rooms don’t always offer these modifiers, so being able to host your own room gives you an extra option.

As for the resource issue, on the Asian server, you only need one build to clear Cataclysm Floor 40. However, upgrading other weapons for the same character or starting a new one later requires a huge amount of resources. In the mindset of Asian server players, they can clear Cataclysm 40 with a specific build of a certain character, then use the materials they’ve earned to develop other builds and experience different playstyles in Cataclysm.

21

I’m not completely sure about this, but I suspect that a typical Chinese player who has just reached level 40 would struggle to handle Damnation HI missions on European servers. Do you have any estimates of how many hours it takes an average Chinese player to reach level 40?

There’s a suspicion that such a player is highly optimized for a very narrow range of actions, and in a less controlled environment they would completely fall apart. Of course, this doesn’t apply to all Chinese players, but specifically to those who have just reached level 40

22

That’s not right. The demotion system should always be in effect. Also, rank should be tracked separately for each character

23

When it comes to boss handling, fighting the Twins on the European server is a real struggle. Players there tend to use high-mobility weapons like the Dueling Sword, Dagger, Power Knife, or even the Catachan Sword. But among these, only the Dueling Sword is actually good against the Twins, and they don’t use Smoke Bombs either. So in my experience, every fight against the Twins on the European server is a tough battle.

By contrast, on the Asian server, even in random matches, people will use Smoke Bombs to blind the Brother and stop him from targeting anyone. Then they try to burst down the Sister quickly right after her first Void Shield explodes. This strategy works most of the time. That’s because players on the Asian server use weapons that are less mobile but much better at boss damage, like the Power Sword and Thunder Hammer.

The only really tough fights are when the Twins spawn together with multiple other bosses.

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I would like you remind you once again that “balancing the game around” in this context actually translates to just one out of the 45+ difficulty levels the game offers.

You’re certainly entitled to disagree with balancing havoc 40 around pre-mades but you’re definitely not entitled to grossly misrepresent it like that, as you have been doing repeatedly across multiple threads.