2H Sword needs something

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
21

On Cata at least it’s really not. How much have you actually played the weapon? Genuinely curious because all your opinions on it sound theoretical/based on guides.

Hence why you’re not just spamming them, you’re opening with one which with the right breakpoints will not only put the SV into stagger state for bonus damage, but will also stagger all other horde AND elite enemies (basically anything shy of a CW) around him allowing safe follow-up even when fighting clumps of SV. If you have enough space you might even go for 2 consecutive push attacks before rotating back to a heavy attack. Also heavy attack damage is low yes, but due to the high damage clave the bigger the clump of armour you’re fighting the more effective it becomes for total DPS.

Multiples armoured enemies is exactly why the heavy attack opener is important, staggering all of them for bonus stagger damage as well as allowing safe opening for the push attack following ups. The stagger breakpoint for SV is pretty trivial for 3 out of the 4 classes ever likely to use it in the first place.

Again if you build stagger breakpoints right and play it intelligently you shouldn’t be doing this. I am telling you you are not enjoying the weapon because you are outright building/using it wrong.

In theory I agree with you but in practice I’ve found it surprisingly natural to land most of the time, thought obviously it’s target dependent.

Most people won’t take the time to learn it properly, make the same mistake you’re demonstrating of thinking they should just be spamming push attack whenever they want single target damage, and/or have only used it on difficulties where its cleave is overkill and wasted. No wonder they don’t enjoy it and underrate it. I know a good number of extremely good players round here who agree with me about greatsword and frankly that’s enough to know I’m not just mad to think it’s genuinely good.

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22

Where is this “plenty of people.”

One only had to look to Bardin dual hammers for where 2h sword fell behind(beside the fact that dual hammers is dual weapons).

FK isn’t the only class on kruber; 2h sword isn’t that great on FK either. It also doesn’t have the best horde dps. And until Sword&Mace gets nerfed, why can’t people compared 2H sword to it? Do you make the same excuse before moonfire got nerfed? “we shouldn’t compare longbow…etc. to moonfire because moonfire op”???

The thing is your idea of “good” is entirely subjective and I will not be trapped by that attempt. I have never claimed it’s “good” or otherwise - that is straw man you made up. Very few guides if any recommends 2h sword for a build.

“using popularity as a measure of effectiveness is fallacious” - not really. 2H sword is kruber’s starting weapon, if all weapons are meant to be good but a starter weapon quickly fell out of favor of general playerbase, that’s a problem. There is no cosmetic(swords are popular, duh)/“coolness” deficiency either.

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This isn’t the first thread of this nature. I can tag some of these people to give their input if you really want, I just assumed they were as if not more bored of this topic as I am. @Velsix @Adelion @Rebel @TmanDW @Saryk.

Yes, it would have been objectively dumb to buff longbow because Moonbow was broken stupid at the time. That is basically textbook power creep lol. This opinion was also completely validated by Moonbow getting the nerf it deserved. I will not use an obviously overtuned weapon as a baseline, and I have absolutely 0 respect for any argument that does so.

Every opinion is at least partially subjective big whoop. I have in no way strawman’d you. You said in your original post that your suggested change would make greatsword at least playable. The only logical way to interpret that is that greatsword is not currently playable. I take great issue with that, as I have used it a lot in Cata and I again know people who use or even swear by it in high modded difficulties. To suggest a weapon like that is not even passable is completely absurd. Please at least consider that you might just not be very good with the weapon or simply don’t enjoy it where others do. Not every weapon has to be for everyone, those who like greatsword generally love it.

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24

Greatsword is awesome. It’s just that it shines on higher difficulties where enemies have more hitpoints and the density is greater. If you can oneshot enemies with a single powerattack of most weapons anyways and you never get under pressure the greatsword isn’t needed and most other weapons are more efficient. But its superb cleave and good stagger allow you to keep dealing damage in situations where other weapons can’t even afford to attack anymore.

On most of the melee careers that can use it, the greatsword is more than fine:

Footknight: Suprisingly good attack speed and amazing stagger combined with its intrinsic cleave: yes, please!

Mercenary: Nothing but synergy between the weapon and the class.

Grail Knight: His passive and ult alone solve the weaker single target potential, even if having a second weapon wouldn’t have done that already.

Witch Hunter: Auto kill on crit headshot (with bonus crit chance) and bleed on everything you cleave (which is everything in front of you with this weapon) makes WH + Greatsword a very undervalued combination. If Rapier hadn’t had perfect synergy with this class already we’d see greatsword WH a lot more. It’s seriously not inferior to the Billhook on him!

Zealot: His damage and speed steroids with GS’s superb cleave makes you mince hordes like anything short of a flamethrower can. The same buffs still make you perfectly capable of killing armor well enough.

The main point of GS is that it performs really well against things like a horde mixed with armor and / or berserkers and / or shields. It chops and staggers right through that, even if there’s Chaos Warriors in the mix. Even though individual enemies don’t die very fast against it, the kiling speed of GS against that entire horde altogether doesn’t underperform at all. There was a video a while back of somebody soloing a Cata SV patrol to illustrate this point. Anybody knows where that one is?

You just don’t need GS’s strong points on lower difficulties as much, so people start the game and learn that GS isn’t good, and never change that opinion. GS has also been buffed over the years this game exists, so people might also not realize that. There’s also the fact that GS was sub-par in Vermintide 1, which might also influence people’s opinion on it. But if you take it with an empty mind and take a while to get used to it, you’ll discover its potential soon enough, especially from Cata and onwards.

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25

Yeah, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSAg6Xaex38

True, I am a bit bored of the topic. All of it’s been said before, it has good mobility, great control, great damage against any type of horde, shines especially against mixed hordes and elite hordes, only truly struggles against Chaotic Warriors and Monsterinhos. Definitely value it above executioner, on par or maybe a little bit better than spear, a bit worse than Bongsword.

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26

I see other people have explained how good GS is already so I’d just like to comment on the proposition; stab after push attack. I agree with the idea, since GS as of now feels bland to me.

This is exactly how I feel about GS, hence the additional moveset is definitely yes for me.

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27

Elf greatsword i think is worse than krub and salts greatsword but i have way more fun with that weapon due to the high skill heavy attack. Krub greatsword as has been said already is just so boring. Its great sure, but its boring. I agree with the above suggestion that light attacks should be changed as i personally almost never use them. Its always heavies and push attack when playing greatsword. Maybe this change would be too cookie cutter but maybe the light attack chain could be like 1h sword where its 3rd chain light is a overhead. It doesnt even have to be something that does armor damage, just a reason to use anything other than heavies and push attacks.

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@Rebel do you still have access to that thread you created forever ago about reworking the light attacks of the greatsword? I remember that being one of my favourite GS suggestions. If you do could you link it here?

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Yeah, it’s from the beta feedback section that got archived. I can fish it out but can’t be bothered right now, might do it later. I do still think it’s the best way to spice up greatsword while still keeping it to its roots. Though I also liked that other persons suggestion to make greatsword heavies look similar to brettonian longsword heavies.

A lot of people suggest adding a stab as a special attack button, and I really think that’s the wrong way to do it. Special attacks are generally reserved for utility like billhook snatch or rapier ranged pistol shot. Spear & shield has that poke it can do while blocking, and even that feels awkward. You can’t hold special attacks like you can with heavies, so greatsword special stabs couldn’t be aimed, couldn’t be held, wouldn’t have a heavy feel to it. And the biggest issue is, unless it’s mostly useless, it’d be the one move you’d spam over and over on an armoured enemy until it died, which’d look mega jank. Having it as a heavy move accessible only after a push-attack makes the most sense and has the best flow in my opinion.

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31

I think elf Greatsword is a bit better just because it has one of the best movement tech + extra crit %.

The stab is not too powerful but it’s effective enough when skilled at headshotting. Even if stab didn’t land on head, heavy 2 can add a little more damage.

32

I only play on cata.
2H sword is still very much meh.

I feel that at least 90% of wipes are due to monster(s) + chaos patrol, maybe with some specials thrown in(none of 2h sword’s business anyway) and that’s basically everything 2H sword is bad at.
You can deal with regular hordes, even mixed, without too much trouble using almost any melee weapon(unless using 1h axe or something like that) with a push mixed in(which FK would be using to get +15% aspd anyway).

Merc already has good passive bonus on cleave, he can use something that does more singletarget damage to make up for the weaker part.

Billhook is superior just because of special attack(2h sword has good stagger? well pressing one button to stagger CW is better, far better singletarget headshot damage helps too) and movement tech(moving faster to engage/disengage? yes please). 2h sword headshots are awkward especially on charged attacks.

Zealot works with basically anything; a dual weapon would work far better in case of infinite ammo volleybow build.

Finally, there’s basically no point to 2H sword when I could just use Bret.LS.

34

big whoop - you trying to make it all about your opinion.

You’re purposefully ignoring the fact that mace and sword was added well before moonfire and wasn’t nerfed. Moonfire was op because it was compared to the rest. You’re trying to avoid comparing 2h sword to sword&mace because deep down you know sword&mace isn’t anywhere near moonfire’s level in relation to rest of melee weapons.

“You said in your original post that your suggested change would make greatsword at least playable” - literally strawman.

My original words were: more playable options for two characters.

Not to mention I wasn’t asking for a buff. Adding that extra attack is more of a sidegrade(lowers skill floor since people could be trying to do it while getting hit; higher skill ceiling for people who can aim/dodge - again, a stab is harder to land on the head than an overhead).

Please consider that maybe others are good enough with all weapons that 2h sword, although can be effective(just as 1h sword can be) is just blatantly mediocre at best. I actually like to use Elf GS(most obvious difference: it has a stab).

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35

Okay, I’m not sure if I’ve been unclear, if your reading comprehension is just bad, or if you’re deliberately ignoring my argumentation.

Yes, there are many ways to deal with mixed horde with a variety of weapons. But that doesn’t take anything away from the fact that the GS simply does it better and faster then most other weapons, which is a clear strenght of the weapon, which was the point.

Sure, massed Chaos Warriors are some of the most dangerous things in this game, and the GS is not the best against that, but that doesn’t mean that the weapon is therefore useless. Against a chaos pat the greatsword still has use, because even though it doesn’t kill the Chaos Warrior quickly, it still cleaves and staggers and damages all the Marauders and shield carriers around it, which means that you still do work while providing some safety as well. Big whoop that Billhook can stagger the Chaos Warrior with its special, because his buddies around him are wailing in on you while you do that. On normal Cata, it doesn’t really happen that you’re “just” fighting more than 6 CWs at the same time. You’re always fighting some CWs, mixed with lots of lesser enemies. And in that situation the GS shines. It’ll control and kill the chaff until just the CW(s) is(are) left, in which case it doesn’t really matter that much anymore that the GS can’t kill them as fast as other weapons can.

Monsters are a similar thing. Monsters come with their own balance problems, by the way. If your argument is “a GS can’t kill a monster quickly”, that’s not as relevant as you make it seem. There actually aren’t any weapons that can kill a monster (especially when mixed with other enemies) super quickly by just attacing anyways. The only way monsters in this game get killed quickly is by busted talent, ult, and potion shenennigans. Even Billhook and BretSword - when doing nothing but attacking normally - don’t actually solo kill a monster super fast either. So once more: In the context of a normal round, a GS user is still useful to have. If a team is fighting a lone monster, it doesn’t really matter that much which weapons people are using anyways. But if a team is fighting a monster with a horde and roamers involved (which is the situation >90% of the time) the guy with the GS can help a lot by quickly and efficiently dealing with the chaff to get the situation under control. Imagine if four players were using dual daggers or something. Even though the monster damage of that weapon is a multitude of the damage GS does against monsters and therefore would have an easier time on paper, that team would actually in reality have a harder time in a horde + monster fight then if a GS wielder would be around.

You can repeat the arguments about Billhook and BretSword and whatnot having way better single target damage infinitely. Nobody is contesting that. But the effective DPS of the GS isn’t worse (or even better!) in realistic combat scenrios, which is something that isn’t so clear from comparing numbers alone. If you’re going for a TrueSolo or something the GS might not be the best choice. But in the context of a “normal” game, a GS benefits the group as much as most other weapons do.

Also, nobody here is arguing that GS is secretly the best top tier weapon in the game or anything. We’re just contesting the claim that it is significantly bad / worse than most other weapons. Sure, Mace & Sword and BretSword are probably more powerful overall. But if that’s your standard, then like 80% of the weapons in the game need to be buffed. You can’t claim that GS is worse than 2H Hammer or Executioner or Spear or Falchion or Billhook or… or… etc… And that’s what we’re trying to say. If you feel that everything in the game needs to be pulled up to the level of S&M that’s an opinion, and that’s fair enough. One could agree or disagree with that. But if you’re saying the GS is significantly worse than the average weapon in this game, that’s not an opinion vut rather a factual statement, and it’s false.

Wanting the GS to have a more varied moveset as a “sidegrade” is also a fair enough opinion, but you seem to simultaneously claim that you “wasn’t asking for a buff” and that “2H sword is still very much meh.”. So I’m having a bit of difficulty determining what your argument really is.

(For what it’s worth: I personally don’t mind the GS being a bit “boring” in its moveset. Some people might just enjoy its simplicity. As long as it works well enough and is unique, I’d rather have new weapons being introduced than old weapons being overwritten. That way there’s more gameplay variety in the game.)

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36

Such a great post. I just had to also reply because I felt that liking it wasn’t good enough.

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37

Mercenary is not a good monster killer regardless of what weapon you use. No point in trying to patch up an unavoidable weakness. Even with the innate ~33% cleave bonus, hordes in Cataclysm are thick enough for you to not cleave them fully.

Mace & Sword received large changes in the 2020 Big Balance Patch. Previously it was a rather mediocre weapon, but was buffed massively, and I believe a lot more than what the modders intended.

The implication is that currently greatsword is not a playable option. Exactly as was pointed out.

If that’s all you wanted, then your speech on greatsword being mediocre/not a playable option is entirely pointless and gets in the way of your main argument.

Agree to disagree. I like the weapon, I think it’s very effective. Adding a stab wouldn’t change your perception of it unless it was a big boost in single-target damage.

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I’m not purposely ignoring anything. As pointed out by Rebel it was buffed very significantly in the BBB, well beyond what the modders that created the original balance mod that the BBB drew from intended. The modders said as much themselves. It’s just a generally common opinion I’ve seen that that weapon is overtuned, and from my own experience with it I agree with that stance.

I never meant to imply it’s AS overtuned as Moonbow was, but it’s noticeably overtuned nonetheless.

My quoting of your words was sloppy certainly, but that still reads with exactly the same implication to me. I read the word “more” here to mean “additional”, as in providing an option that is not currently “playable”. The only other way I can think of to interpret that is that by “more playable” you meant “playable to a greater degree than currently”, which wouldn’t necessarily imply the weapon is currently not playable, and if you did mean the latter of those readings I have indeed misunderstood you, though I wouldn’t call that wording very clear at all if that’s what you really meant.

Well naturally that would depend on the numbers and how exactly the stab was tuned. Note my objection was never really with your specific suggestion, but with the implication that the weapon isn’t already more than serviceable. I don’t like to see it underrated because I think it’s a really solid weapon and the hate for it is pretty unfounded. I also simply pointed out that that isn’t the change I’d personally go for if trying to improve the feel and enjoyment in using the weapon.

As already pointed out by TmanDW not trying to argue that it’s some super meta pick, and it’s only something I started using heavily after like 700-800 hours in the game, so it’s kinda weird to imply I might be using it as a crutch, while simultaneously calling it mediocre? I’m just not sure what you’re really trying to get at there but regardless I’ve laboured my point of GS being a perfectly respectable weapon more than enough at this point. I do apologise for somewhat derailing the thread nitpicking your personal take on the strength/weakness of greatsword, I think we’ve fairly well hit an impasse for further discussion on that anyway. Mostly just responding here to try and clear a few things up.

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39

The greatsword is just so inferior to the executioner’s sword that is why it seems bad. It’s not that awful, but it needs something. Heavy attacks that look and feel exactly like the light attacks are odd. I think perhaps it needs a vertical 3rd strike for light attacks akin to the one-handed sword and its push attack. This way heavy attacks could be heavy, heavy, and light to perhaps get nice damage vs. single opponents.

Most of Kruber’s weapons besides this one and executioner’s sword have attack patterns that can be used to maximize melee efficacy, and I like this. With the x-sword just keep crosshair at eye level and swing. The halberd is decent but with a high skill floor and objectively poor defense; low stamina, low dodge, weak push angle and strength, low stagger.

Careers like slayer, handmaiden, or zealot have a few highly effective weapons that you can just spam light and heavy attacks to great effect whereas a halberd expert requires the utmost skill. It’s part of the reason Kruber takes more time to master and rarely gets to the point you can reach similar damage output to many other melee specialists.

The greatsword on Zealot or Handmaiden is at least backed by the speed and defense passive talents to make it powerful vs horde while the javelins can wipe out armor, and zealot gets the speed/crits to the heavy attacks cleave through armored groups.

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40

Don’t need to cleave through literally everything to deal with horde.
2h sword isn’t even the highest dps against horde.
It being a weakness doesn’t mean it should be completely given up.

It’s 2022, there’s plenty of time to nerf it if needed.

“more playable” not “it wasn’t playable before and this would make it playable”

“If that’s all you wanted, then your speech on greatsword being mediocre/not a playable option is entirely pointless and gets in the way of your main argument.”
There was never an argument, you were not capable of arguing as you were not able to even grasp the point. Because a copy/paste move makes GS more interesting/fun and costs FS basically nothing.

It doesn’t need to be a “big boost in single-target damage” - see elf Greatsword (charge 1/2) for example.

41

So you know it’s fine to compare to mace &sword because it’s not a moonfirebow situation.

Yes that’s what I meant. It makes 2h sword more playable. If it was completely unserviceable then it would need straight up stat buffs…etc.

Well yes the numbers can be tuned(elf GS is a good example of where it should roughly be).

That’s not what I implied; I implied that just because someone can do well at high difficulty with a weapon that doesn’t mean it’s good(nothing to do with “super meta picks” or whatever). Nor does that have anything to do with whether a weapon is in a good place. What I suggested wasn’t going to make it top end(it still needs stamina and aim to do meaningful antiarmor damage).

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42

To be fair 2h sword does have better dodges and iirc more range; also less awkward against a horde without attackspeed buffs.
And the heavy attacks are more horizontal than lights(but are extremely awkward in that they’re neither horizontal enough for consistent headshots on everything hit, nor diagonal enough to guarantee something is headshotted).

And the angled slashes get more awkward as kruber is fairly tall(and slave rats are short, resulting in attack possibly failing to hit if they’re too close).

2h sword is just mediocre in all areas that it’s boring, there’s not a single instance where I wish I had 2h sword instead of anything else(except maybe if I randomed a longsword or mace in chaos wastes).