TWO-HANDED SWORD (again)

[ptavangar]

Please improve the 2H sword in some way. If you want it to be a one trick pony (which it currently is), that is fine by me BUT you need to make it absolutely fantastic at killing hordes. Currently, its cleave is still surpassed by some of the more versatile weapons like the 2H hammer and the halberd (has less cleave but can still kill hordes more efficiently a lot of times with the right build). The 2H sword is a meme in the endgame right now. I use it but only with Mercenary Kruber because no other character class can make good enough use of it. If I bring it, I am making a conscious decision to sacrifice elite killing power and armor killing, therefore, it needs to be worth it. My suggestion is to either increase its armor piercing on its heavy OR (my preference) simply increase its cleave on both its light and heavy attacks.

I do appreciate the fact that you are making all the weapons useable slowly but surely. However, I am surprised the 2H sword has not seen some serious love recently.

P.S. - I am liking the changes to the 2H Axe but I was disappointed that you did nothing to improve the block timing. That is the main issue with the weapon.

[iamJUB]

I’d argue that even if it were better at what it’s designed to do, it wouldn’t be good. There just isn’t a place in the game for a pure hoarding melee weapon because as soon as an elite mixes in with the hoard it’s useless, even with 3 times more cleave it would still be stopped by one SV in the mix. We already have excellent pure hoard clear weapons that are arguably even better such as the Drakefire cannon but no one runs with it on Legend because there isn’t really a place for a pure hoard clear weapon if it offers nothing else.

[Kitten]

I think they need to be improved too, but a good tip is to take a ranged with plenty of ammo to make up for melee elite killing power. Repeater Rifle with Kruber and Pistols with Salt are what I usually go if I’m lacking elite power.

The problem then is that CW can be really tricky, and not because they’re hard to kill, because of the angles needed for a headshot and low ranged killing power on them.

[CommanderJ]

I think it needs more cleave for sure, more AP on heavy, and some attack speed/movement speed wouldn’t go amiss either. Dodge range is also abysmal.

Meanwhile the ‘pure’ horde weapon of for instance kerillian, the dual swords, have excellent speed, good stagger and excellent dodge.

[Avar]

They should increase the finesse coefficient on headshots. Lateral decap on SV

[Sasa]

According to squatting bear stat sheet
Damage/stagger
2h sword cleave:
Lights: 16.5/14.14
Heavies: 26.92/18.85
2h hammer: 5.65/22.62
I really don’t see how you’d say it has less cleave than the 2h hammer. Sure it staggers slightly less targets, but damages far more (and those for a lot more). Some examples:
Fanatics:
Sword: Kill/14/8.5/7/4/4/4/4//4/4/4
8 staggered
Hammer: 13/8.5/4/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
10 staggered
Marauders:
Sword: 25.5/14/8.5/7//4/4
4 staggered
Hammer: 13/0/0/0
4 staggered

Really the only thing the GS lacks in horde clear is range, which it really needs buffed. It’s jarring how short it is, given the size. With proper range it could actually utilize it’s enormous cleave and be a horde clearing monster.

[NikKotovski]

Somehow you “forgot” to mention stagger values.
Hammer: max 10.3, min 4.29
2h sword max 5.18 min 1.72

Also, concerning Marauders’ damage and stagger values. First of all, where did you get their mass from? Second, the numbers just don’t match. The numbers you give for different attack types imply different mass for Marauders, ranging from 2.5 to 6. Your calculations are just soooo wrong.
And as far as I know 2h sword cleave/stagger is 15.47/11.25, not 26.92/18.85
And I am certain, that 2h sword lights have 8.44/8.44 cleave/stagger, not 16.5/14.14

And don’t forget the lunge on charged attacks.

[DAF]

Dude the reduced cleave value means the weapon just stops after a certain number of enemies are hit, which means no damage/stagger to the following enemies. The 2H Hammer just mashes through them, staggering them at least. I’ve rarely seen a 2H hammer reach it’s cleave limit.

[Sasa]

@NikKotovski

Also, concerning Marauders damage and stagger values. First of all, where did you get their mass from?

Damage Spreadsheet (for 1.0.5 beta)

Here is a new version of the damage spreadsheet, updated for the beta branch (v1.0.5): As always, it’s incomplete and poorly tested. This will hopefully be the last version I’ll have to post, since UnShame is working on a spreadsheet of his own. Notes (unchanged from previous post): You will probably want to make a copy of the spreadsheet (File -> Make a copy …) so you can modify the settings in the top row (Hero Power Level, Difficulty, Values). Hero power below 120 is not supported beca…

1.0.7 version available further down.

Second, the numbers just don’t match. Different values you give give different mass for them, ranging from 2.5 to 6. Your calculations are just soooo wrong.

Fanatics have a mass of 2.5, marauders 6. At least according to the squatting bear sheet i specifically cited.
Do you have any updated version that invalidates my numbers?

And as far as I know 2h sword cleave/stagger is 15.47/11.25, not 26.92/18.85
And I am certain, that 2h sword lights have 8.44/8.44 cleave/stagger

Light damage cleave was buffed to 9.8 base and both heavies and lights have linesman, which reduces enemy hitmass by 40%, so i simply divided the base values by 0.6 to get the full number. 2h hammer has no such modifier, at least according to the sheet.
Were you possibly confused by using an outdated sheet, where the swords lights had no linesman, the linesman modifier of 0.6 wasn’t listed, the swords lights had less cleave and enemies had higher hitmass?

@DAF

Dude the reduced cleave value means the weapon just stops after a certain number of enemies are hit, which means no damage/stagger to the following enemies. The 2H Hammer just mashes through them, staggering them at least. I’ve rarely seen a 2H hammer reach it’s cleave limit.

Both stop after a certain number of enemies hit. The 2h sword will stop after the 2h hammer reached it’s limit, at least according to the stat sheet.
I’ve actually rarely ever seen the 2h sword reach it’s limits, on the heavies never actually (since the buff, before that it’s lights were low on cleave). Although i don’t use it regularly, only occasionally on the huntsman so take that for whatever you want.

[Chungus]

I went into VT2 hoping that the GS would be better but I was disappointed. Hoping FS see this topic and the numerous topics made so they can do something for the GS.

[NikKotovski]

@Sasa

1.0.7 version available further down.

Could you please share a link with us.

@Sasa

Light damage cleave was buffed to 9.8 base and both heavies and lights have linesman

Can’t find any mention of this change in patchnotes.

@Sasa

have linesman, which reduces enemy hitmass by 40%,

Again, where did you get the numbers from? I am not saying that they are faulty, just curios. Also, are u sure it works on all enemies, maybe it"reduces SOME enemies’ hitmass". Was it fixed, because the last time I checked linesman did nothing?

@Sasa

have linesman, which reduces enemy hitmass by 40%, so i simply divided the base values by 0.6 to get the full number.

This things are not obvious at all, so I think you should have mentioned them in the original post.

Also, knowing all that stuff, and making all those calculations, somehow you didn’t do a detailed stagger comparison, limiting yourself only to the number of enemies staggered, not mentioning the strength of it.

[Sasa]

@NikKotovski

Could you please share a link with us.

Damage Spreadsheet (for 1.0.5 beta)

There is an updated version for 1.0.7 here: The attacks with changed damage are: Axe (light attack left, light attack right, light attack last) Falchion (light attack left, light attack right, light attack bopp) Flail (light attack left, light attack right, light attack last, light attack down, light attack bopp) Axe and Shield (light attack left, light attack right, light attack bopp) Hammer (light attack down) Dual Axes (all attacks) Wizard Mace (light attack last) Sword and Shield (light…

Can’t find any mention of this change in patchnotes.

Part of “All weapons have also had their cleave tweaked in order to make some weapons more viable than others, against large hordes of enemies.” presumably, in 1.0.5.
The change on the stat sheet is from 1.0.5 beta to 1.0.5 live.

Again, where did you get the numbers from? I am not saying that they are faulty, just curios. Also, are u sure it works on all enemies, maybe it"reduces SOME enemies’ hitmass". Was it fixed, because the last time I checked linesman did nothing?

The spreadsheet. It only reduces some enemies, but all enemies you actually will ever care about.
Skaven slaves, clanrats, clanrats with shields, fanatics, marauders, bulwarks and even zerks and, funnily enough, maulers. Basically everything, except maybe specials? But even then, globes/gutters have a hitmass of 1, you can’t penetrate hooks/armored, leaving only leeches and stormsorcs and i have actually no idea if you can pen them. Although at that point i think it’s sufficient to just say they don’t really matter and be done with it.

This things are not obvious at all, so I think you should have mentioned them in the original post.
Also, knowing all that stuff, and making all those calculations, somehow you didn’t do a detailed stagger comparison, limiting yourself only to the number of enemies staggered, not mentioning the strength of it.

I personally simply don’t care that much about the amount of stagger and far more about the enemies hit, especially since i have no idea what those numbers mean beside ‘more staggering’. I also feel like it goes beyond the point that i was trying to show: That it is not the cleave holding back the great sword.

[NikKotovski]

Thanks for the link.

@Sasa

I personally simply don’t care that much about the amount of stagger and far more about the enemies hit,

But that’s just you. People might care. I care, for example. Care as much as about damage.

[CommanderJ]

Just wanted to quickly write that after trying Keri’s 2H that it is much better. It has fast attack speed and doesn’t slow you down much when attacking or blocking.

In my opinion, being ‘safe’ in melee in this game is all about being able to move quickly and dodge while attacking. I can’t for the life of me understand why Kruber has no really good, fast weapons like this. Nothing comparable to dual weapons or falchion.

Fixing the 2H would be a good first step.

[TheUndying]

The 2h Swords need:

a) more reach, those things are almost man-sized weapons and have less reach than a 1h Mace or Sword
b) a lot more cleave (maybe also less damage drop-off so you can slay 2-3 slaves per swing?)
c) armour pen increase, either by giving it decent AP on normal swings and/or GOOD armour pen on charged attacks

It’s such a shame really. The striking angle, the lacklustre speed, the awful armour pen, the bad reach…I want to love them, I really do (having a Red 2H Sword for Kruber doesn’t make it any less painful!) but there is just nothing going for them. Halberd does everything better and is easier to use.

[Sasa]

@TheUndying

b) a lot more cleave (maybe also less damage drop-off so you can slay 2-3 slaves per swing?)

The lights kill 2 with a little bit of +power, the heavies 4 with a little bit (and 3 by default).
I generally don’t see how it is held back by cleave though, it’s higher than pretty much everything except practical infinity cleaves like flail/mace.

[TheUndying]

Welp, got me there; I didn’t test the sword in a long time since its AP damage is so bad.

But it felt a bit too slow or too weak for efficient horde clearing, so one of those two things needs a buff. If that makes any sense.

But what is certain that both reach and AP are bonkers and need adjustement if this thing is to be used on Legend runs at all.

[ptavangar]

This is one thing I failed to mention. The 2H sword needs a longer range. It is a very long sword and yet, it feels like I need to be very close to the horde in order to hit them and that opens me up to being hit more frequently. This is not a 1H sword here. It should have more range than something like the glaive or 1H weapons but less than the spear/halberd.

[hgjw]

Slow, clunky, no reach and no AP. I’d say at least 2 of those needs to be buffed significantly or 3 of them somewhat.