I think Fatshark fixed it a long time ago to actually work for clients, but it took long enough that I didn’t really care to try it out instead of the other two traits. The more that @mahkra talks about it, I’m convinced it might be a decent pick if you don’t want to rely on RNGesus Ranald to dupe your bombs with Grenadier and you already have teammates with buffs that don’t stack with Shrapnel.
That being said, I never worry about friendly fire with grenades as it is now, do you? I imagine it’s still the same damage for regular bombs and I feel like fire bombs don’t have any friendly fire beyond the small impact itself. If there’s a fly on your shoulder, I’m chucking a bomb or three at you.
It still seems kinda weird to me that they took off the “Grenades no longer do friendly fire damage” bit from Explosive Ordinance in the first game. Seems like that’d be a good buff to it to convince skeptics like me to try it, at the very least.
I still feel like, regardless of its actual utility, the fact that it is just a bump in percentage points to a value with no conditional proc makes me feel like it still is worthy of a demotion to be a “secondary trait” within the scope of my idea. At the very least, I at least feel bad about making fun of Explosive Ordinance. I’m sorry, little trait
Maybe we could replace it as a primary trait with something like “You can now carry two bombs”. Kinda like Grenadier, except 100% reliable as a safe bet, although losing on the fun factor of chucking 5 or 6 bombs at a Rat Ogre.
The amount of times I’ve gotten the same exact red illusions multiple times makes me think that he really likes duping things instead of giving me my damn beanie.
I feel like the trait options on jewelry are in a pretty good place. Everyone has some traits that they think are the obvious best choice, but we don’t all agree on what that obvious best choice is. That means that different options fit better with different play styles and abilities, which is great.
Trait options on weapons certainly seem less equal, though. Some of those feel pretty irrelevant and probably should be buffed / tweaked.
But overall I think the system of each item having one trait to choose is fine.
I do kinda like the idea of properties being more a la carte increments, though, and also re-balanced a bit to make some of the trash properties stronger and/or cheaper. 10% Damage Reduction vs AoE, for example, just seems completely pointless. I almost feel like it could be 50% and still be fair. Whether that’s accomplished by changing it to 50% or just by letting you select 10% five times, I don’t really care.
A more simplistic change would like if cant have everything mentioned earlier in this thread.
Being able to Mass scrap items instead of the limit of 9 today.
fIxing the “freezing” when you mass forge/reroll on items and weapons.
Being able to choose one trait or property you can keep on an item before rerolls.
(would make the RNG alot more bareable)
Weapons loosing their “charm” because you get a better one right after?^^
Make the materials you scrap from them something more interesting you could use them on after, and would be fine with it how it is in the game today.
Kinda find the more NEW properties and talents more interesting then changing the whole crafting though. (if we could have some simple fixses as mentioned above atleast)
Bringing in more new properties and traits leading to more ways to build you Heroes and play with them are always fun!
I don’t think that we’ll get half the things in the thread, but it’s suggestions for the correct direction to go in. I think reworking crafting to be like Weaves would be step 1, because it’s a direly needed fix. To me, this doesn’t strike me as a very difficult change because they’ve already invested so much of the work in the Weaves’ crafting UI, so the main effort is porting that to the base game. This may be more troublesome if they wrote this code very poorly and it’s hard to re-use for the base game. If they did, I feel very bad for them.
Step 2, which could (and should) come later after they quickly fix crafting itself, is the rebalance of traits and properties as they are now. This can occur independently, but it should occur after the crafting rework so that it’s easier for the community to play with and experiment with changes.
This would be a good change to have and it’s probably still needed, regardless of if my changes go through or not. I think making it so you can salvage more than 9 things at a time would also potentially reduce the amount of requests you make. It may help optimize the system, or it may not.
The problem is that the underlying issue that you’re describing is probably significantly more complex. I don’t know what causes this slowness of the crafting UI. I imagine it’s just overloading the crafting server on their end with too many requests because everyone has to spam rerolls over and over again.
It may be solvable just by scaling up the servers that they have that running on. It may require a significant rewrite of backend code to make the requests go faster.
Just because you can describe the problems in simple terms doesn’t mean that the solution to the problem is simple. I do not think this is probably a little fix at all.
I don’t like this idea of slapping more band-aid fixes like this. How would you propose this fits within the UI? Some extra buttons cluttered on it to “lock” a property when you reroll? How would the backend code need to be rewritten to manage this? Are you imagining it as a separate page like in Vermintide 1 where you rolled the traits and then rolled the individual percentages separately, so it would add a page 9 or 10 to this already complicated UI?
I don’t like investing more development time to make band-aid fixes. The UI is flawed at its very core, I would prefer it be replaced rather than trying to put lipstick on a pig, as the expression goes.
I don’t know what you’re trying to say here. Are you suggesting to make the scrap itself more useful beyond weapon crafting? Either way, eh. I feel like it’d be significantly better to just have an “upgrade power” button like in the Weaves’ crafting.
Instead of costing Essence, have it cost scrap + dust depending on the weapon type. So, it’s like:
Upgrade Orange = costs Scrap + Orange Dust
Upgrade Blue = costs Scrap + Blue Dust
Upgrade Green = costs Scrap + Green Dust
Upgrade White = costs Scrap
It’s basically a 1-to-1 copy of the Weaves’ UI, just changing the currency listed on the button itself from Essence to Dust.
That being said, I still am an advocate of just removing the concept of Power entirely, but again, that’s a different thread.
I’m glad you like the ideas as well, but I am very opposed to adding new properties and traits (I think that’s what you meant to say, not talents) before fixing crafting itself.
I really want to play with new ways to build the weapons, but I don’t want to have to try and experiment with them in any system resembling the current crafting system. It needs a serious overhaul.
On top of that, if we simply added the modular UI from the Weaves to the base game where you pick and choose any combination of properties instead of just rolling for two properties, that adds a great deal of depth to the system without even needing to add any new traits or properties.
The best part about the crafting rework I suggested here, in my opinion, is that it is leveraging the work that was already done for Winds of Magic. You may say that you’d be fine with a simpler fix, but I truly think that a large portion of the work was already done. Your minor suggestions are not already done, so they actually seem like more work to me, even if you don’t see it that way.
Allowing mass-salvaging is a completely new and different UI. That’s a lot of work.
Fixing “freezing” is probably a very nuanced and complicated issue that deals a lot with backend server-side code and may not be easily fixable. That’s a lot of work.
Changing rerolling to allow locking properties is new work and it’s not clear how it should work.
Changing scrapped materials to have some utility beyond crafting new weapons and rerolling properties sounds like it may be complex, if you’re talking about introducing a new system with a new purpose for crafting material.
TL;DR
Your changes sound more complex than you may think, even though you listed them in a few bullet points. I truly think that my solutions for the crafting problem itself are not complex. The solutions I put forth for the trait/property rework are significantly more complex, but I think they’re a better investment of development time than any band-aid fixes like what you’re saying.
We should address the problem at its core, not look for quick solutions that kinda solve some of the issues. It’s a waste of resources to only half-commit to fixing an issue, because it’s just piling on more code that’s being laid on top of a weak foundation.
This is a thing that’s exactly the other way around for me. I think the balancing should come first and the changes after that (if indeed there needs to be a clear order). While the crafting system is bad, I can use it and live with it. It is frustrating, but I can take some time for actively rerolling things if I need (or want) to. The weapon attributes are so out of balance, though, that roughly half of them are practically useless. This also reflects into the crafting system - the randomness wouldn’t be felt as badly if the Traits and Properties were more commonly useful, and I could accept a lot more combinations. Of course, it wouldn’t help when one’s building the weapons (or jewellery) to a certain setup, but when you just want to get something useful (a likely scenario for many players, including any newer players and at least some more experienced ones getting a new piece) it’s very bad to have half the options discounted immediately as they just don’t work.
with the post earlier about simple fixses… Want them too yes, put on some band aid fixses if this takes shorter time. (if it would take shorter time to implement the weaves crafting in the original post over too the base game then yes its even better ofcourse^^) Mostly because Vermintide 2 base game is allready made, and if this would take shorter time what suggested earlier. Because rather prefer them too use as much time as possible on things that brings new content,mechanincs,builds,ways to play the game. They know 100% some of their game could be better in certain aspect even if they dont aknowledge it to us.
Not go back and repair everything they didnt quite make right the first time.
No matter how you look at it, the most time you invest in the game are while you playing (meaning being out on mission) thats where i want them to invest almost all their time on in the end.
But im all for fixing everything they didnt get right the first time. but im afraid if they would go back and rework alot of different aspects of the base game people want it would take more time then “we” probably think. Lets hope them atleast go back and do some fixses where its mostly needed beetwen dlc’s.
It’s an immediate turn-off for new players when they’re learning how to craft. It is bad. It’s a sloppy UI and it’s confusing for new users. All of the lower power and tier weapons are useless in the old system, so it’s disheartening for loot itself to be functionally useless. It becomes okay when you have all reds and infinite material like we do now, but it’s absolutely terrible until you do. It needs to change ASAP.
If they changed Swift Slaying, Attack Speed, and Crit Chance tomorrow so that they were all terrible, would you really be okay with rerolling all of your weapons to try out the new combinations that got changed? What if they added 5 new traits to try out and you had to reroll them each time to try them out on a new weapon? I wouldn’t, especially if that update breaks all the mods I have to reroll stuff, so I have to do this without any mods. You may be okay with it, but I’m not.
You’re “used to” the system because you’ve familiarzied yourself with the UI after probably hundreds of hours of playtime. So, you can grit your teeth and bear it because it’s all you know, but it’s really deeply flawed and needed to be thrown out in March after the open beta. It’s awful and it’s a huge turn off for the game for people to have to bear with the randomness of crafting to be able to customize their playstyle and experiment.
It’s not just a matter of there being “more acceptable combinations” if the stuff gets nerfed/buffed appropriately (which, given Fatshark’s record, is highly improbable). I want to be able to change and experiment with a particular thing that sounds fun, not just cut my losses and roll with “good enough”.
On top of that, I truly think that the changes to the crafting UI to reflect the already existing work done with the Winds of Magic crafting (which I think you did not play the beta, iirc?) are simpler than trying to rebalance everything. On top of that, fixing crafting will make it easier to test the balance if they changed all the properties and traits, because we can directly pick-and-choose what we want to play with, instead of just praying to Ranald. Being able to directly select properties like in the Weaves would allow us to give a lot more targeted feedback, assuming they do a “Big (Trait/Property) Balance Beta” in the future.
Moreover, the crafting rework allows a lot more deeper combinations of properties than just rolling for the best two, so that already, in a way, is a rebalance by allowing people to pick-and-choose things. We may learn that the optimal loadout isn’t what we have now and we can get better utility by picking different combinations of three or four properties like in the Weaves. It’s hard to say.
Again, I’d like to re-iterate the point of the post.
Fatshark already did the crafting rework for the Winds of Magic. This system where we directly pick and choose properties has already been developed. If it was developed well, it should be portable to the base game and its code could be reused (while being tweaked to work differently).
I feel like some people in the thread are vastly overestimating the amount of work to port the crafting from Winds of Magic while vastly underestimating the amount of work it takes to slap on more band-aid fixes to the existing crafting UI. Without knowing how exactly the code was written, it’s hard to definitively estimate how much work either approach would take. However, I think this rework is already half-done because the system itself was designed for Winds of Magic. I also think that this code is fresh in Fatshark’s minds because they’re just wrapping up work on Winds of Magic and they’re probably more familiar with modifying that code than they are with the base game’s crafting code which has been relatively unchanged since release.
TL;DR - When I say “rework crafting” I mean, “they already reworked crafting, just expand the scope of the already existing rework”
