just wanted to play a little devils advocate here , people have been complaining about htis since the beta’s and for good reason. they did do one attempt at change to fix it long while back if i recall , but i suspect the actual attack range is a feature not a bug or issue thats going to get fixed, the best we can hope for i suspect is a change to make the animation clearer but the range wont get shorter.
i think its there so people cant run around or past enemies
If it was intended then give the enemies actual polearms.
Yeah standing 10 feet away from a Chaos Warrior who magically and mysteriously has this invisible extension in his Axe that somehow hits you while you’re standing far away from the actual combat and one shots you…
Yeah its one of those things where you just go… OMG, that is cheezy as hell.
Yeah, there are things like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/93w0ok/chaos_warrior_hitboxes_are_umgak/
Doesn’t even need the axe.
Do you play as host?
Have you extended your field of view?
I´m pretty sure it´s not a range issue. If you did something with your monitoring range, it´s normal.
On the other side it´s more a “hitbox” - issue. If you dodge while the enemy attacks you and you are client, some delay could cause that.
It´s even about math:
Let´s say the enemy stand at variable A and you at B. He started his attack on you. All variables get checked in the background. You try to dodge to C and you do it visually, BUT the attack from the enemy got already checked in the background like A + B = hit and A + C = miss. So the system recognized that you dodged, but just to late. It already calculated that you earned the hit.
Same works in nearly every game. Do you play League of Legends? If the enemy started his attack animation and you try to flash it, you´ll waste your flash and die, because the hit will “follow” you. It´s just “step-by-step-calculation”.
It´s not possible to synchronize visualization and quick math in the background to 100%.
And how do you explain enemies on a different elevation a good 3 metres lower than you hitting you just by flailing their weapon around in your general direction with no dodging involved whatsoever?
If it was the same as league where an attack “homes in” to the target no matter what, then sure. But in a game like this, everything SHOULD be hitbox based. As in, the swing has a hitbox and the target has a hitbox. If both collide, damage is dealt. If not, then not. I agree that delay will cause problems with this rule, but me as a host most of the time should never experience these issues. And I see them enough.
That´s a calculation / visualization issue.
As you see on my perfect improved picture:
NR 1. is quite possible for both (you and the rat) to reach each other, because both stay on a “real ground” just with an elevation-difference. So the system just needs to calculate your weapon range and the gap betwee you and the enemy.
NR 2. is just the issue between hitbox-calculation and the visualization of the stairs. Your own hitbox is just on the same ground like the rat. The slope won´t be calculated obviously. The same works, if you stay downstairs and the rat upstairs. The rat can´t reach you, but you can reach the rat.
It´s much more work to calculate this issue. I don´t even know if it´s really an issue or intended. I´ll tell you why:
FS already told an interesting reality aspect like: The Falchion got a longer range, than the 2-hand-sword of saltzpyre, because you can slay further if you hold something with 1-hand than with 2.
Same works here. Just stay on stairs with a friend. Let him go down 2-3 stairs. He´ll still be able to reach you with his arms (even if he would be only able to touch your legs), because the arms are at a high point of the body. You can´t reach him with your arms at the same point, because … you know why…
So actually… it´s “real”…
EDIT: I hope you can follow me… my english isn´t the best one
So, since its an issue, you agree it should get fixed.
No… I don´t agree and I don´t really disagree… It´s up to FS what they´ll do here…
Like i told, it could be intented like other things in the game, which are " based on reality "
I´m fine with that. Don´t fight on stairs if you stay higher than the enemy.
I would rather prefer a “kill through walls” fix, than this one…
I like games, which are based on reality and maybe need some more defensive play with good positioning, than stupid LMB spam until the end.
Why would we have to choose.
Well V2 in its current state is rather far from realism. Between ice-skating chaos warriors and maulers, animation skipping climbing enemies, boss 180 slams and enemies have way longer range than they should have, it doesnt cut it for me. Again, I have to sing the praises of V1, where NONE of these things were an issue.
V2 is much faster than V1 and the stairs where already an “issue / intended” there.
The “ice-skating” is still just visualization. They could even make the attacks quite faster, then everyone would complain about “CW one-shot me and i´ve got no reaction time to block.” CW/Mauler would be thrash, if they couldn´t reach you, because they´re to slow atm.
The bosses won´t be any danger if they couldn´t do that. If you surround a human , he won´t attack just 1 of you 4 guys, he would rage and slay just around him.
I already explained some aspects of the longer range.
I do know it feels like “the game betrays me, i died to some shitty bugs etc.”. But actually it´s manageable and 100% expectable.
Don´t facerush bosses in their animation, use the “gap” to attack them.
Use your block till the CW/Mauler end their attacks.
Don´t fight downstairs, but fight upstairs. (Use the same advantage like the rats.)
You don´t have to agree with my mind, but i´m sure you can accept , that it´s manageable and there could be some reasons for this state of the enemies and that don´t have to be bugs.
You don´t have to… i would just prefer not to be able to get killed through walls and i don´t want to fight a wall. ^^
Some more collision in some ways of the game would be welcome for me.
Nailed it with the drawing.
CW, mauler and stormvermin overheads are designed and intended to be dodged, not blocked because of the complete stamina drain+ stagger. Stormvermin are fine. CW and mauler are not. How is it fine that if I use the correct counter to an attack they just dont care and have a counter-measure against it? I have seen CW and maulers do a u-turn because their target tried his/her hardest to avoid them and still got hit.
There is an aggro system in place on bosses. They are supposed to follow that rule. And, as im sure you are aware, they sometimes do with neverending fervor (target gets knocked down by boss, target gets finished on the ground by boss, target’s corpse gets attacked 3-4 times after the soul has departed already). When this happens, they also dont care about ANYTHING else. Bomb? Eh, stagger and back to pulping. A million arrows from that pesky elf? Doesnt matter. A juicy 100 hp slayer going nuts on my back with axes? Ignore that. This, together with random 180 slams (sometimes for no reason whatsoever, I have been 180’d when i didnt even actively attack the boss and havent attacked it in the past 10 seconds), indicates something isnt working as intended.
SV are much faster then Mauler/CW.
If FS fix the ice-skating, they have to buff them.
You can dodge about 3 times before the CW could land his attack.
I dont know the “intended” behavior of the bosses. You’re correct, that it’s sometimes a lil bit strange, but what would you do if everything in the game would follow some perfect working scripts?
For example : Hunger in the Dark
In the end i can tell you every enemy and were he comes from. I never had a team wipe at this point.
Every event on every map follows strict scripts. We know them all and theyre more frustrating and boring than anything else with the time.
Sometimes the ai director says fu…sometimes not… sometimes a boss is easy… sometimes not…
It’s much more fun for me, to react on every sheet the director will give me, than to play the same event/boss 100 times. It works in MMORPG raids with rotations and strong mechanics, but not in a game based on decisionmaking, positioning, reaction and skill overall.
Im a big fan of consistency and mechanics that require skill and awareness. So by all means, buff the speed.
I dont care about scripts, I care about consistency. Currently, bosses work in extremes of either being glued to one target for the rest of their lifes or switching aggro around in a split second.
Thats more of an issue with the lack of maps for how many hours people generally play the game. Me included, im at 400 hours.
I agree. But there are alot of things that either dont work as intended or seem to be programmed simply to annoy you.
The stairs thing is because of the weirdness in how the enemies deal with verticality. Unless it’s high enough to climb or to use the upwards attack animation, they only care how far away you are horizontally, that’s why they seem further away when they hit you when you are on stairs.
The thing about having the high ground is, yes you actually have an advantage there because you can much easier attack the head instead of the torso. In addition, even a small snapkick will be a huge problem for the one staying lower on the stairs because it immediately hits your face. Since such a thing is not possible in VT, it’s either fix that problem so it is fair for both sides, meaning if they can hit me I can hit them, too, or actually giving the high ground a reach advantage to simulate the higher probability of a hit to the head. I’m completely ok with option a by the way, but trying to explain it away with “realism” is just lazy in a game that uses magic and immediate 180s. In addition, the most problematic thing about the reach is simply that I clearly see the enemy weapons NOT reaching me, but I’m still getting damage. And when an unarmed rat attacks me, I expect that it’s arm does not magically stretch like Luffy’s in One Piece. I expect that the reach is exactly as long as the arm is. And when they have a shiv, the reach shouldn’t be much longer. Now when I fight against someone and have a sword, halberd or something of similar reach, I expect that my reach is bigger than some rats’. If we’re already talking about reach, how come that Bardin and the slaverats have the same reach as all other heroes? The humans and elves are much taller and should by all logic have higher reach. If you cite realism, stick to realism. If you want to balance the game, say so, but still make it believable. Giving a rat a longer weapon so everyone understands they have the reach is not that hard.
Don’t get me wrong… I just used some kind of FS - logic here. But as we see at the latest patch notes, they obviously dont care about realism now, till they buffed the g-sword range.
That still lies in the code / relationship between hitbox and animation / delays.
FS probably could program it nearly perfectly, but that won’t happen. It just take too much time and you can play around the most issues.
I’m even pretty sure that a lot of issues wouldn’t exist with dedicated servers. I guess you’ve got matches too, where the host is not in your neighbourhood, you shot an enemy and saw hin falling down 1-2s later.
This would probably cause another problem.
“You think the rats have a bigger range, that they don’t have.”
Yes it would be a solution for this topic here , but the other 95% of the game , you react to an animation, which don’t do anything, because the hitbox is the same.
I hope you can understand what i mean. ^^