An Attempt At a 4th career: Kruber, the Horned Hunter

Fatshark Lounge
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Hey hey people, shitlord here with some more :fire::ok_hand::joy::ok_hand::fire: LIT AF :fire::ok_hand::joy::ok_hand::fire: content.

So with the recent news from the Reddit AMA revealing that new careers are coming for the members Stud Squad (at the expense of completely killing off new characters, rest in peace Ogre dude), I decided that I’d share my idea for a new career.

If not already obvious, the career is for Kruber, and the career is the rather oddly named Horned Hunter, considering he’s neither horned, nor really that much of a hunter all comes to all.

The rest of the post will be separated into points to hopefully make it more comprehensible. With that being said, I’ll just get on with it.

Background (What is a “Horned Hunter”?)

A Horned Hunter is, essentially, an angry, environmentalistic, religious murderhobo that lives in the forest, likes animals, and hates civilization.

So basically, your average everyday Greenpeace activist.

Now, that may sound bad and not fitting Kruber at all, but let me explain.

Horned Hunters are the priesthood of Taal, the Imperial god of Nature, Beasts, and the Wilds. For those who don’t know, Taal is part of what is called the Old Gods - the gods the barbaric tribes of mankind worshipped prior to the arrival of Sigmar, consisting of other gods such as his brother, Ulric, worshipped in the province of Middenland, his son, Manann, worshipped in the province of Nordland, and his wife, Rhya, worshipped together with him in the aptly-named province of Talabecland.

As the most stalwart and zealous followers of Taal, the Horned Hunters shun technology, industrialization, and civilization as a whole, eschewing the material life of the rest of the Empire to live in the wilds as their ancestors did before them.

They refuse such things as armor, wearing naught but animal skins and loincloths, as well as firearms, preferring the simplicity and reliability of a bow and arrow.

To them, the forest is the alpha and omega. It is both the home they live in, the temple they pray in, and the tomb they will die in. The forest gives and the forest takes, all according to Taal’s will.

Contrary to the zealots and flagellants of Sigmar, Horned Hunters do not concern themselves with rhetoric, believing that true conversion comes from actions, rather than words.

They also like to get tattoos all over their body for
 some reason.

And that’s pretty much it.

Reasoning (How does Kruber fit into this?)

As Horned Hunters are, first and foremost, worshippers of Taal, it hinges on Kruber’s own worship of the same god. As opposed to someone like Saltzpyre and most other citizens of the Empire in general, Kruber places more faith in Taal than he does Sigmar, with far more quotes dedicated to him than the Patron God.

Kruber himself attributes this to his parents originally hailing from Talabecland, the Imperial Province mentioned earlier known for its worship of Taal.

Kruber even already has a career dedicated to his worship of Taal, that being his Huntsman career. I guess you could see the Horned Hunter career as “taking it a step further”.

Canonically, I’d imagine the career change to a Horned Hunter would happen post-WoM. Kruber would bear witness to the devastation the meteor caused and the true extent of the End Times would dawn on him - causing him to find solace in his god.

He’d also witness the savagery and ferocity of the Beastmen first hand and would essentially go “well, if you want to fight to fight the beasts, you must become like the beasts”.

So the “why” has been explained now it’s just a matter of “how”.

Usually, Horned Hunters are initiated by way of having a “Forest Mentor”. That is to say, an older, more experienced Horned Hunter guides the initiate over a period of time in the forest, helping them accustom themselves to life in the wilderness.

Usually, although the initiate might have been wanting to join the Horned Hunters for a longer period of time, the mentors are the ones to seek out the initiate, rather than the other way around - as if they somehow knew already.

When the initiate is deemed ready for life in the forest, the mentor will vanish without a trace, leaving the initiate alone to provide for themselves. Only if the initiate manages to survive and successfully find the way to the shrine of the Horned Hunters on their own are they accepted into the priesthood.

The ones who do not survive are used both as cautionary tales for the training of new Horned Hunters, as well as sacrifices to Taal.

Naturally, Kruber has to belong to the first group, however, the problem is that he has to have been away from the Keep for a long period of time, which can’t really happen considering the Stud Squad are, presumably, fighting every single day.

However, I will take a bit of creative liberty here. You know that voiceline “We’re the Ubersreik 5 - or 4, doesn’t matter.”? Our heroes are of course numbered five, but in-game we only ever see four at a time.

Up until now, this has been shrugged off as a joke, that, canonically, it’s always the five together and that it’s only four in-game due to gameplay purposes, but what if it isn’t?

What if, when they do decide to go on “missions” or whatever you want to call them, they only ever sent four at a time, leaving one behind to both guard the Keep as well as get some rest to be ready for the next day?

What if, whenever Kruber gets his day-offs, he’s been sneaking off to see his “mentor” in the woods, teaching him the ways of the Horned Hunter while the others are on missions?

Or even that he took an extended leave of absence (solicited or not), in order to live in the woods themselves for the weeks or so it takes for him to become a Horned Hunter.

That’s at least the only explanations I could come with for it.

Anyway, fast forward, Kruber is done training as a Horned Hunter, he returns to the Keep as this grisly, tattooed hulk of a man wearing nothing but a loincloth and a dead animal and he’s ready to take the fight to the Pactsworn in the name of King Taal.

And knowing the Stud Squad, they probably won’t take to it too badly. I mean, they’ve accepted a suicidal dwarf, a psychotic murderer, an insane murderhobo (again), and a pyromaniacal lunatic before. A Horned Hunter is probably the most stable of them all here.

Appearance and cosmetics (What would a Horned Hunter look like in-game?)

This point will be brief, as I’ve already touched on the subject.

The overall appearance of the career will be based on the only canonical image of a Horned Hunter we have:

A grisly barbarian covered in branches and green tattooes, wearing a toothed necklace, loincloth, stag skull, and stag skin as a cloak, with small feathers, trinkets, and charms hanging here and there.

Naturally, Kruber would have a massive beard as well, although a bit more filthy than his Mercenary or Huntsman careers, with both branches and moss in it.

For cosmetics, I could imagine that headpieces would change both the skull as well as the skin cloak on his back.

For example, you could have a wolf skull and skin cloak as a reference to Ulric, Taal’s brother, a boar skull and skin cloak as a reference to Blacktusk, the legendary boar Sigmar himself befriended, a bull skull and skin cloak (ironically, an animal that actually has horns) as a reference to Ostland and how Kruber served in the military there, and more!

Goat skull and skin cloak, bear skull and skin cloak, etc. etc.

Chestpieces are a bit more difficult, as the Horned Hunter, well, doesn’t wear anything on his chest. Instead, I’d imagine the different chestpieces would change the color of his tattooes (which are green by default). Yellow, blue, red, whatever fits I guess.

Gameplay overview (What differentiates a Horned Hunter from the rest?)

Alright, with this massive wall of text out of the way, let’s actually get on with the career.

With the Mercenary being a melee support career with an emphasis on churning through hordes, the Huntsman being a ranged damage dealer apt at taking out specials and monsters, and the Foot Knight being a tank focused on crowd control, Kruber already fills a lot of roles.

So I decided to go with the Horned Hunter being a purely melee damage dealer, akin to Bardin’s Slayer and Saltzpyre’s Zealot careers, with just a tad bit of Kerillian’s Waystalker sprinkled in there to fit with the whole forest theme.

However, unlike the Slayer and the Zealot, which focus on unleashing a flurry of rapid attacks, the Horned Hunter is a lot more about slow, but very impactful attacks, excelling at taking out powerful enemies like Stormvermin and Chaos Warriors at close range.

This will be explained in greater detail further down below when I get to the passive abilites, career skill, as well as the talent choices.

To reflect the Horned Hunter’s shunning of technology as well as emphasize it’s focus on melee combat, the Horned Hunter will be unable to wield any ranged weapon other than the Longbow (previously restricted to the Huntsman only). Instead, much like the Slayer, the Horned Hunter will be able to equip two melee weapons at once.

In addition, also like the Slayer, the Horned Hunter will be unable to wield melee weapons with shields, such as Sword & Shield and Mace & Shield. To make up for this, the Horned Hunter is the only career able to wield the two-handed Greataxe, which, I’ll be honest, is just Bardin’s Greataxe copypasted over to Kruber.

Maybe you could swap the light and heavy attack patterns around to differentiate them but otherwise they’ll be mostly the same. Of course, they won’t look the same visually, as Bardin’s greataxe is dwarven in design, whilst Kruber’s will be more primitive and simple in design, as seen above.

The Horned Hunter, much like the Huntsman, will also only have 100 maximum health, so you have to be a bit more careful than with Mercenary.

Passive ability and perks

To emphasize the “slow, impactful strikes” nature of the Horned Hunter, he has several bonuses towards critical strikes and charged attacks.

Passive Ability: The Killing Blow

  • Critical hit charged attacks that hit a weakspot instantly slay man-sized enemies.

Perk: Hunter’s Focus:

  • Increased critical strike chance by 10%.

Perk: Taal’s Steadiness

  • Charged attacks can’t be interrupted by damage.

These bonuses are all centered around a few hard-hitting attacks, much like a hunter that methodically plans his strikes.

Career skill

Unlike the Slayer and the Zealot, which have some form of mobility ability with an attack speed buff tacked to it, the Horned Hunter’s is a lot more focused on the whole “slow strikes” thing, as it is literally a giant slam.

Career ability: Wrath of the Forest

  • Kruber prepares a mighty swing of his weapon before bringing it down, creating a shockwave that deals massive damage to all enemies in front of him as well as staggering all enemies hit.

Yeah, it’s not very original, but hey, it is what it is.

Not only is it great for creating some breathing room from hordes, but it is also great at taking down larger foes such as a Stormvermin Patrol or a Chaos Warrior.

Talent tree

Now on to the talent tree, which will be the last point.

Level 5:

  • Sweeping Cleave: Damaging multiple enemies in one swing grants temporary health based on the number of targets hit. Max 5 enemies.

  • Kill for Taal!: Melee killing blows restore temporary health based on the health of the slain enemy.

  • Gift of the Forest: Healing yourself with a First Aid Kit or a Healing Draught also heals your nearby allies for 20% of their maximum health. Removes any wounds.

Level 10:

  • Wild Carving: Attack speed increased by 10%.

  • Closing In For The Kill: Hitting an enemy with a ranged attack increases your melee damage towards the target by 20% for 5 seconds.

  • Concentrated Swings: Every 5 hits grant a guaranteed critical strike. Your attack speed is lowered by 10%.

Level 15:

  • Mainstay: You already know this one.

  • Smiter: You already know this one.

  • Enhanced Power: You already know this one.

Level 20:

  • Thrill of the Hunt: Triggering a Killing Blow grants 20% movement speed for 10 seconds.

  • Feral Frenzy: Triggering a Killing Blow grants 10% attack speed for 10 seconds.

  • Strength of the Earth: Triggering a Killing Blow causes all of your light attacks to count as charged attacks for 5 seconds.

Level 25:

  • Agility of the Wilds: Dodge Range increased by 20%.

  • Heightened Constitution: Increases max health by 25%.

  • Neverending Hunt: Killing an elite or special enemy grants 1% movement speed buff, stacking up to 30%. Lasts until end of mission or death.

Level 30:

  • Taal’s Call: The cooldown of Wrath of the Forest is reduced by 30%.

  • Decisive Strike: If Wrath of the Forest is activated while holding a one-handed weapon (including dual wielding weapons), the charge up is instant. If Wrath of the Forest is activated while holding a two-handed weapon, the shockwave width and length is increased by 50%.

  • Exhilaration: You restore health based on the health of the enemies killed by Wrath of the Forest.

And yeah, that’s pretty much it. That’s the Horned Hunter.

If I’m being honest, I don’t actually expect the Horned Hunter to be the next career, if even released into the game at all. It’s such an obscure piece of lore that’s almost never used in the actual setting.

But that clearly didn’t stop me from making this because damn it, if I can’t viscerally slay copious amounts of daemonic Ratmen and Vikings with an axe in the name of militant environmentalism then what’s the point?

And no, Kerillian does not count.

If you have anything to add to the post, make sure to do so down below. I leave you now to ponder why I spend hours on making this post in the first place since that knowledge is truly lost on myself.

Also, check out this other sweet 4th career idea for Kruber made by @BizarreSalp: New Kruber Career Idea - Grenadier. It actually slaps ass, unlike this one.
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You know, the biggest reason this wouldn’t work is that Kerillian would be fangirling over him constantly. They’d have to record all new dialogue for her. :confused: Way too expensive.

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Love it!

This seems absolutely busted though.

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i would rather see kruber be a weapon master.

have dedicated talent for specific weapon types.

for example:

-your sword does bleeding over time(last a long duration, like say 60 seconds).
-maces causes knock back (ragdoll physics on attacks).
-none sword+mace weapons causes stamina regen.
these 3 talents on the same row, so u pick one of those 3 based on what weapon you use.

for ranged would be like
-multiple shot weapon (like repeater rifle) has 50% better accuracy (better run and gun).
-single shot weapon gets an additional 2 shots (so shotgun and rifle gets 3 shots instead of just 1, and u can fire them in quick session).
-range weapon does full damage and ignore armour. (body shot cw with repeater/shotgun and still does full dmg)

-your bomb does no friendly fire
-your bomb also creates smoke and blocks LOS
-your bomb explodes a second time 4 seconds later

-you have 10% chance of picking up a random potion when you pick up a consumable
-your potion effect duration also causes blocking to be free
-your potion effect duration also causes 3 temp hp per second.

-when you gain temp hp, your ally within X yard also receive 1 temp hp
-your temp hp does not degen over time
-you can have up to double of your max hp in temp hp.

-when you die, your team are healed for 15 hp.
-when your teammate dies you gain 25 hp.
-you are healed by 1hp when you reach 90% life (temp hp counts).

-you do 15% more damage to full health enemies
-you do 35% more damage to enemies with 30% or less hp.
-when you take damage, enemies 3 yards around u takes 30% of that damage.

passive:
-you gain 1% crit, up to 10%, for 8 seconds whenever an ally lands a crit melee attack
-when you crit, your allies within X yard receive 1% crit, up to 10%, for 8 seconds.
-when you kill a boss, you’ll do 35% more damage against bosses for the rest of the game, up to 100%

active ability
-aoe knock back, all affected ally gains 30% consentration (purple bar) instantly. and all consumable has an additional 30% not being consumed on use for 5 seconds.

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That was a pretty good read, but i think it’s a bit too similar to the Huntsman and to be honest i’d rather see Krubers 4th career be either a Grenadier or a Templar.

I think i heard Saltzpyre mention something about making Kruber a templar in the keep a few times, can’t remember his exact words.

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Easy solution.

Remove her from the game.

This decision has been long overdue ever since the game’s inception anyway.

The only good elf is the elf that never existed in the first place.

B E G O N E T H O T.

Yeah, might be a tad bit too strong, but I had difficulty coming up with a third option for the tier.

Figured it would be neat if there was a talent that allowed proccing Killing Blow without needing to charge attacks, albeit at the catch of having to trigger a normal Killing Blow first.

I imagine it as you using a heavy, two-handed weapon (cough the Greataxe cough), proc Killing Blow, then switch to a faster attacking weapon such as Sword & Mace and then going to town, but I can see how that could get out of hand.

Reducing the duration any further to something like 3 or 2 seconds doesn’t really seem like the answer, so an entirely new option should just replace it.

Have any suggestions?

Ehh
 Lorewise, he sounds far too similar to Mercenary (which is also someone skilled in the use of many different weapons, hence why the Mercenary is a sort of “all-rounder” character with loads of different talent choices), and from an in-game perspective, the Weapon Master’s talent choices sound way too restrictive.

For instance, if you’re running with a Sword, you only have one option for the first tier, that being the talent that gives your Sword a bleed. There is no reason to take any of the other talents in that tier, since none of them benefit the weapon you’re currently running.

The same for the second tier - you only have one choice in that tier depending on what ranged weapon you’re using.

It’s not really player customization if the player doesn’t have that much of a choice to begin with.

The talents that give a positive benefit when either you or one of your teammates dies also doesn’t really promote a healthy playstyle.

Finally, I don’t really see how people dying providing a positive benefit, or random chances to not consume a consumable, has to do with a “Weapon Master”? What part of mastering weapons lets you derive a physical health improvement from people dying?

I understand the intention behind having a generalist career like this that can be specifically tailored towards certain playstyles, but it just seems far too all over the place, and, as I’ve already said, far too similar to what Mercenary already provides.

For me, at least.

Yeah, the forest-y, Taal-worshipping career option is already filled out by Huntsman (both careers even have “Hunt” in their name), but I tried to differentiate them as much as possible by having the Horned Hunter be more focused on melee-combat, as well as far more primitive and primal.

This is also stated in the post itself that the Horned Hunter should mostly be seen as a “going a step further” with the Huntsman, fully embracing the worship of Taal and putting aside technology and the like.

A Grenadier career, such as the one linked at the bottom of the post, does sound like a great and unique idea on paper, but I have a feeling it would be too focused on one thing.

Bombs are supposed to be an uncommon item you only find scattered around on the map randomly, and without a reliable way to acquire them (besides being almost forced to run him alongside a Ranger Veteran every time), the Grenadier could end up being kinda gimmicky for most of the map if he fails to find any bombs.

Templar is also a possibility, however, a Templar is also a Knight, and Kruber already has a Foot Knight career.

Besides, a Templar is someone who devotes themself to a god, and considering Kruber’s god is Taal, being a Knight, someone wearing large amounts of armor, is anathema to Taal to begin with.

If we’re stretching it a bit, you could also consider a Horned Hunter to be a Templar of Taal, considering they take the ideals of Taal to the furthest length.

And though this is my own interpretation, I don’t think Saltzpyre’s comment on being able to sign Kruber up to the order was meant as a deliberate nod towards Kruber getting a Templar career further down the line.

Besides, I don’t think Kruber would sign up to the deal anyway. He has proven himself to be skeptical of the Witch Hunting business (as well as other elements of the Empire as a whole) at times, something which draws the occasional ire from Saltzpyre.

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I’m am truly amazed by how much work and thought you put into all this!
Love to read more ideas from you and others who share your passion in creative ideas for this game!
Keep it up guys!

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the first 2 tiers is to make your weapon perform better than vanilla. if you want to use sword, then your sword will do more than a merc wielding a sword (both sword and sword+shield), or your mace (1h, mace+shield, 2h) will do more than a vanilla kruber holding a mace. same with the range weapon tier. since weapon master is suppose to do better “white” damage.

the other talent tiers are all similar with this concept. your consumables will be better than a vanilla consumable.

and party events (such as death) will also be better than a vanilla party event. for example all 4 are black and white, if 1 person dies in a horde then somebody will get healed and taken out of black-white phase. that is better than just a plain death of a party member.

basically weapon master is better than the other kruber at everything (but little bit) except the areas where the other kruber is specialized in. like merc’s cleaving, huntsman’s infinite bullets, fk’s tankieness

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Heh, this makes me wonder if I should share my updated ideas for the Skink character that’ll never happen. XD

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No no, I understand that, but the whole point of a talent tree is to give the player a choice.

It’s to allow the player to choose the bonus they want according to their preferred playstyle.

However, by restricting the talents in the first 2 tiers to only work when you’re using a certain weapon, and do absolutely nothing if you aren’t, it removes the player choice from the equation, thus the point of having a talent tree in the first place.

As mentioned in the example, if I decide I want to go with a Sword and Handgun, I only have 1 choice in both of the first two tiers. I cannot pick anything else, since they will provide no benefit whatsoever.

That’s not a choice.

The only other career in the entire game to do this is the Slayer, which has a single tier with two talents that provide a benefit based on if you’re either running two one-handed weapons or two two-handed weapons.

However, these two talents in specific are a lot more broad, as they apply to all one-handed and all two-handed weapons respectively, rather than only providing a benefit if it’s an Axe or a Hammer or whatever.

In addition, there’s also a talent at the end that doesn’t have this restriction and provides a benefit regardless of your weapon choice, something the Weapon Master doesn’t in the first two tiers.

Again, I get it. The whole shtick of the career is to “do everything better than vanilla” - essentially a “jack of all trades, master of none” career, but it’s far too disconnected and all over the place to be coherent.

The first two talent choices give you the impression that the career is all about upgrading specific weapons, that the equipment you’re wearing determines what talents you choose and that you’re really trying to excel in one specific type of weapon, but then it does a complete 180 and provides a lot more broad and generalist talents towards consumables, bombs, temporary health, and deaths, which has nothing to do with mastering weapons.

The Mercenary is basically already the Weapon Master idea you’re describing here, but done right. He’s both a horde-clearer, a crowd controller, a support, and can even tank if talents are chosen for it. However, unlike the Weapon Master, he’s not restricted by anything, as all of the talent choices can be mixed-matched together, and they provide a clear benefit other than just “being better than vanilla”.

Not just that, but the idea of an item-centered career (or at least a career that gains benefits towards item use) is already filled by the Ranger Veteran, which has exactly the “chance to not consume a consumable” talents we see above with the Weapon Master.

Finally, deaths are inherently supposed to be negative and detrimental to the party as a whole. Once you start tacking postive benefits to something that is otherwise supposed to be what you’re trying to avoid at all costs (since, other than reaching the end of the map, the primary goal of the entire game is to not die), it sends the wrong message to you as a player as well as your team as a whole.

I’m sorry if I come off as a rude here, as that’s not my intention, but I just don’t really see the point of this whole Weapon Master idea. Careers should have a core identity they revolve around, while still providing a choice for customization to the player.

However, the Weapon Master does neither, having no real identity (as the whole mastering weapons idea is forgotten about entirely after the first two talent tiers, as well as the passive perks and career ability not really reflecting that either, and then proceeds to provide far too broad choices) while still managing to be restrictive.

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regarding 1st 2 tiers of talents, the choice is to pick the weapon u wish to use and ur desired playstyle. it’s along the same idea like (i cant remember the name of teh talents lol).

-on whc, i use rapier, so of course i’ll choose headshot dmg talent
-on ranger, i use range weapon to kill most of the stuff and melee is just a backup weaon. then of coruse i’ll avoid the “when no ammo u do more dmg” talent (no idea wat its called lol), and the “special drops more ammo” talent. you tailor your talent to work with the get up/play style you’re aiming after.

the line of thought i can offer is to ask u self why are you using the combat talents u’re using atm and not the other 2. is it because you like the weapon u’re using and it’s dictating your talent choice? thus using talents to accentuate your weapon’s capabilities? Or is it you like the play style 1st and is dictating your weapon picks? and ur weapon is there to accommodate your play style? I believe most people picks their weapons first (making choises) then pick talents that go well with their weapon choice, not the other way around. but we could agree to disagree :stuck_out_tongue:

regarding to the other talents which boosts miscellaneous attributes, let us assume fatshark released a character like this. I dont think the player base will reject him as much as you suggested. this character has it’s own uniqueness. he can do things other krubers cannot.

merc is able to
-cleave well
-buff party with attack speed
-give aoe knock back for breathing room
-spam ult with con pot for temp hp for the party
-instantly helps teamate up via ult talent

comparing it to weapon master
-can’t cleave as well, basically vanilla cleave
-but it can have semi perma dot via sword like bw
-can toss people much faster (1h mace) without using 2h mace or play golf with 2h mace
-can have on demand and almost free shove if using non sword/shield.

-has much better range weapon
-can’t give party attack speed while in melee, but give party crit buff. unlike huntsman, you dont have to stand next to him (more like merc).
-also able to ult to do aoe knock back. use on similar situation where merc would ult.
-can’t give ally temp hp via ult, but 1 of the talent to give 1 temp hp when he gets temp hp. (but of course u can just not pick that talent, so this one is a moot). but weapon master can spam ult to let his ally ult more. 1 gives temp hp, 1 gives more ult.
-can’t help people up instantly (as a talent for merc), but he can get (via talent) friendly fire bomb, or free block potion (maybe even more options but i’m to sleepy to think of any atm).

heres a few things merc cant do
-creates bottle neck for hordes via bomb with smoke, or 2 times explosion fire bomb.
-can’t supply a minor amount of potion for the team. like how ranger is better than merc.
-can’t 1 shot things as well (15% more dmg to full hp). like how whc is better than merc while holding fast 1h weapon.
-can’t execute things (primarily bosses) as well (35% more dmg to 30% or less hp enemies). like how shade is better at killing bosses.
-can’t be as sturdy via temp hp does not degen, or have double max hp in temp hp. like how the tankier careers are better.
-can’t do on demand significant better chance of not consuming consumables.

I feel like there will be people that likes this and I doubt its a minority. this character wouldn’t be abandoned if fatshark release it as is, maybe much like whc on launch (i’m a whc main since beta lol). people playing this class will have their specific moment to shine and out shine other (krubers), just like very other career, only shines alot more often, in less degree.

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I think it’s fair to say that most ideas won’t make the cut in to the game and we all know that :)! But it may be inspiring for the devs and definitely for the community!!
It’s way better to share than to hide. You may never know what’s going into fruition!
I would love to read all the creative ideas!!
Keep them coming!

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i play too much WoW so my brain has alot of rpg/party wide ideas XD

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You know my answer:

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I’m unsure if I explained myself wrongly in the previous post.

I have absolutely nothing against choosing talents to cater towards your own preferred playstyle. In fact, that’s the entire purpose of talent trees in the first place, as I have already agreed to. I fully support this.

At the same time, I believe in neither choosing talents based on weapon choice, nor choosing weapons based on talent choice, but a combination of both.

X should not be dependent on Y, and Y should not be dependent on X. The player should be the one in control here.

Mercenary, again, being a great example of this done right. You can either spec into a support-oriented playstyle with Strike Together and On Yer Feet, Mates!, tankiness with Enhanced Training, Blade Barrier, and Walk It Off, or just pure horde clearing and crowd control with The More The Merrier! (or Limb-Splitter), Reikland Reaper, and Ready For Action.

There’s a lot of variety within this one single career, and the best part is, none of these options are restricted by weapon choice.

You can choose a support-oriented playstyle or tank-oriented playstyle or whatever, regardless of what weapon you like to use, completely allowing the player to tailor both playstyle and weapon choice as they please, as opposed to being shoehorned into choosing one thing only just because it’s the only thing that works with that specific weapon (which is the antithesis of what a talent tree is supposed to be, and goes against the supposed message you’re trying to convey in the first place).

The headshot talent for WHC, whilst having obvious synergy with the Rapier due to it’s precise attacks, is still completely usable with other Saltzpyre weapons.

The same for the Ranger Veteran talent. Even if you prefer to use ranged weapons for 100% of the match, it still provides a bonus in the rare case scenario where you do find yourself out of ammo and forced to melee.

The Weapon Master talents don’t. You either equip the weapon it works with, or you don’t.

That’s not playstyle tailoring, that’s not player customization, that’s the game deciding FOR the player.

If the point of the career is to be a generalist, the bleed should not be dependent on the weapon being a Sword, the knockback should not be dependent on the weapon being a Mace, and the increased stamina regeneration should not be dependent on the weapon being neither.

It should just be a bleed, just be increased knockback, and just increased stamina regeneration. No unnecessary restrictions that take choice out of the player’s hand.

This is true player choice, at least in my opinion.

Again, I’m afraid we’re misunderstanding each other here.

I’m not against a career that can do a large variety of things (I’m a Mercenary main myself, so even I should know that), nor am I against a Kruber career that can do things the other Kruber careers cannot.

What I have a problem with is:

  • A career that isn’t very unique from the other careers from a lore perspective.

  • A career with no real core identity (and in the case of the identity it is trying to have, that being the “jack of all trades”-esque thingy, it’s far too restrictive as well as all over the place).

  • A career that, despite it’s name (being in this case “Weapon Master”), it has almost nothing to do with mastering weapons, neither reflected in the passive bonuses/career ability, nor in the vast majority of the talent tree.

  • A career that tries to make fundamentally negative game mechanics positive (in this case, death).

  • A career that too heavily borrows a mechanic that’s otherwise unique to another career (in this case, the chance to not consume items, which is currently unique to the Ranger Veteran).

These are the points I have a problem with.

This isn’t about me “not liking” the career, or Fatshark “abandoning” it, or whether it’s going to be well received by a majority or a minority within the community, or whatever.

It’s about the design of the career itself. A design which I see as both too similar to what we already have, and too all over the place and disconnected from what it is trying to do.

When I made the Horned Hunter, I tried to make him different from other melee DPS careers like the Slayer or Zealot by having him focus on slow, heavy-hitting attacks - essentially making him a melee-focused special/elite killer, something we don’t already have.

The things that you’re describing Merc can’t do (and simultaneously things that the Weapon Master is capable of) is already things other careers on other heroes CAN do.

  • Ironbreaker is already good at “tossing”, on demand shoves, and free blocking.

  • Huntsman (as well as other ranged-oriented careers) already have much better ranged weapon bonuses and already provides a crit chance buff to his party.

  • Mercenary/Witch Hunter Captain already have an AoE, crowd control career ability.

  • Shade already one-shot executes things.

  • Ranger Veteran already supplies far more items for his team.

However, while all of the above fit certain playstyles and excel in those, the Weapon Master falls short because so many of his other talents don’t have anything to do with that playstyle.

If I’m someone that likes to deal massive damage with ranged weapons, why would I want bonuses for dying? Or temporary health generation?

Why not just pick Huntsman instead, where I can choose bonuses towards ranged weaponry in every tier (beyond the generic temp hp talents in the 1st tier and the generic stagger talents in the 3rd tier), instead of having to waste talent points on things I don’t want?

Or if I’m someone that wants to play as a tank, why am I wasting talent points on dealing increased damage to enemies at low health, or chances to not consume an item?

If these are the playstyles people are looking for, why would they ever choose a Weapon Master instead of one of the already established careers?

The problem isn’t that the Merc can’t do these things as well as others, because he’s not supposed to. A jack-of-all-trades character is not supposed to do as well as other careers that are specialized in those things.

Merc is not supposed to be as item efficient as Ranger Veteran, one-shot things as well as single-target damage-oriented careers, or be as tanky as tank-oriented careers. That is their job.

There’s nothing wrong with other careers doing this better, and adding this Weapon Master as an attempt to circumvent the Merc falling short (since I’m assuming this is what it boils down to, you want a jack-of-all-trades career for Kruber, yet you find Mercenary to not be capable of enough things at once) doesn’t sound like the answer.

And again, I’m sorry if I come off as rude or aggressive. I don’t mean to completely shut down your idea, but for me, I just fail to see the point.

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u know wat, now that i’ve think about it, the 1st tier talents for the 3 types of weapon should just be 1 talent, and 2nd tier 3 ranged weapon talents should be 1 talent too. so u choose between melee expert, or range expert and have another talent (maybe support expert) to compete.

i think the uniqueness comes from being above average at everything. i dont know what u meant by restrictive, since he has bonuses from all over the place and isnt being restricted. he’s called weapon master cuz hes good at everything. he isn’t called weapon specialist. also i guess i could rename him to something else like seasoned soldier (shrug). and i would argue that consumable to a degree can also be weaponized (bomb being the most obvious).

I dont think theres anything wrong with getting something positive out of negative events (being unique).

there are trait borrowing all over this game. like knock back (whc,merc) effect being part of slayer leap. or charge effect being very smiliar to dash (i think this is wat its called, i dont really play elf lol) to fire walk. or unchain ult giving temp hp similar to merc. there is nothing wrong with having other people’s ult effect.

iron breaker is indeed good at ccing, but that’s all hes good at (if u tailor him like that). what if i also want to be good at other things while still being able to cc (albeit not as good, but good enough to get by).

huntsman (and other ranged careers) are good at range combat. but in melee they are just doing white damage. so comparing to a ranged character, weapon master not as good in ranged combat but better in melee. and at the same time weapon master worse than melee combat specialist but better in ranged combat. he doesnt get caught with his pants down.

its like when making a character in rpg. u put points into different attributes. a melee character would have lots of points in hp, str, maybe agility and not much in other stats (or ranged/magic caster have more points into other essential attributes). weapon master has (or try to have) equal points in everything. in no condition (or tries to) is he in a disadvantage.

PS: I dont know how to do quotes properly XD

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This I see as fantastic progress.

This way, there’s never a point where the talent itself is not useful. It’s always going to provide a benefit regardless of what weapon you’re using, and then you can choose the weapon you want to use according to what bonus you want from the talent.

In addition, it pits it against a ranged or a support-oriented bonus instead, meaning that if you’re someone that really just wants to focus on either melee or ranged or support and don’t care about anything else, you don’t feel like you’re wasting talent points (not taking into consideration the other talent choices further down below).

It also creates a bit more room for the 2nd tier (which was needed considering that the many talent suggestions actually exceeded the amount of tiers we currently have).

If I could make a suggestion though, I’d have the bleed apply to all “Sharp” weapons (which includes all Swords, the Halberd, and the Spear), the knockback apply to all “Blunt” weapons (which includes Maces and the two-handed Hammer), and then have the bonus stamina regeneration apply on shields (in addition to the bleed and knockback bonuses from either using Sword & Shield or Mace & Shield respectively).

The Sword & Mace would also be a special case weapon, as it applies the bleed on every Sword swing, and the bonus knockback on every Mace swing.

This way, it broadens the range of weapons beyond just Swords, Maces, and then everything that isn’t either. The overlap between the bonuses is more of an unavoidable technical thing, but most of these weapons (at least last time I checked) are underperforming anyway, so the extra stamina regen boost for shields here, or allowing both a bleed and knockback for S & M there, shouldn’t be too bad.

And that is unique! I have nothing against a career who’s identity is to be good at a wide range of things.

However, not only do we already have that in the form of Mercenary, but when you make a jack-of-all-trades character, you have to, from a balance perspective, make sure they aren’t too good at the things they do, otherwise they end up being imbalanced.

Sure, a Ranger Veteran is useful due to how many items he can provide to the team and his ranged damage output, but can he also have lots of crits (both for himself and his team), completely demolish monsters, have AoE knockback AND charge the ult of other teammates, make bombs more effective, generate temporary health for his team, and even make deaths positive?

No, he can’t. The Ranger Veteran’s only real identity he has is his items and ranged damage output, and even though the Ranger Veteran is slightly better than the Weapon Master in those departments, the fact that he can’t do all of these others things on the side at the same time means he’s going to be outclassed.

This is why jack-of-all-trades characters are absolute nightmares to balance. Either they:

  • Are able to do a lot of things, but suck at the things they do so badly it’s not even worth it to pick them.

  • Are able to do a lot of things, but are too good at the things they do it’s not even worth it to pick another more specialized career simply because they wouldn’t be nearly as versatile.

  • Aren’t able to do that many things all comes to all, making the point of it being a jack-of-all-trades character worthless in the first place.

The Mercenary fits somewhere in-between the 2nd and 3rd points. He’s a jack-of-all-trades career in the sense that he can fit a wide range of playstyles, but not every playstyle you can imagine.

At the same time, the fact that the Mercenary is so versatile means there is always never a bad time to have one on your team. You can always use additional horde clear and crowd control, you can always use temporary health regeneration, etc. etc.

The Weapon Master instead I see as falling squarely in the 2nd point. He’s too good at too many things.

Being able to do a lot of things is unique, but being good at everything for the sake of being good at everything is not good career design.

Again, in my opinion.

I was mostly referring to the first two talent tiers. Those were the ones I thought as being too restrictive, but the change you mentioned above helps alleviate the restrictiveness immensely.

See, that’s the thing.

The theme behind the “Weapon Master” or whatever it’s called now boils down to Kruber being a seasoned army veteran - a soldier whom have spent years on the battlefield, garnered a ton of experience in a variety of fields, and thus has proven himself to be good at a wide range of things.

The only problem is
 that is exactly what the Mercenary is.

The Mercenary is, bluntly put, just an experienced soldier. It is the fulfillment of Kruber’s time in the military. After having served for several years in Ostland, and then having dealt with the whole Ubersreik debacle, Kruber leaves the military, takes his experience with him, and becomes a Mercenary.

And, much like the Weapon Master, the Mercenary IS already the jack-of-all-trades character.

Although, I will admit that I am beginning to sound like a broken record at this point, so apologies for repeating myself.

You know, I wouldn’t mind it either, if it fit the career.

Say, a Necromancer, someone who specializes in death and people dying.

I don’t see what part of being an army veteran makes you healthier by the people around you dying, or vice versa.

There are some key differences here, however.

Most of these “shared effects” have been in the game since the beginning. For instance, both the Merc’s, WHC’s, and the Slayer’s career abilities causing knockback or Handmaiden and Battle Wizard both having dashes have all done so since they were implemented, thus they have been never been directly unique to one single career.

The only offender here is the Unchained talent, which was added with the talent overhaul of WoM, and even then, it’s less supposed to be a supportive ability (as it’s still an AoE damage nuke which you’re almost always going to be activating based on your current Overcharge amount as opposed to the health of your teammates) and rather a small survivability buff to yourself since the Unchained is going to be in the thick of melee. Compare it to the Merc’s ability, which is used much more often in order to make breathing room for his team. They are similar, but they are used in two different situations.

In addition, they have other defining things about them. For instance, the Merc is a heavily AoE horde churning-based career, whereas the WHC is a lot more about heavy single-target damage, both melee and ranged. The Handmaiden is a melee-centered career with an emphasis on dodging, whereas the Battle Wizard is a ranged career casting spells, and so on and so forth.

The Weapon Master is
 everything, yet nothing. Again, I feel he’s missing that core identity other careers have. The Weapon Master being able to more effectively use items is just straight up lifted from the Ranger Veteran. That was the Ranger Veteran’s unique identity, and without it, he’s just a generic ranged character.

Whereas other careers have shared effects, yet fit mechanically different playstyles, the Weapon Master takes something from a career which was otherwise completely unique to them prior, and then does it while doing loads of other things at the same time.

That is what I mean by too heavily borrowing a mechanic.

There is nothing inherently wrong about being able to do multiple things at the same time (as in, I completely emphasize with being able to do more than “just CC”, “just tanking”, “just ranged DPS”, and so on and so forth), however, it should still be kept to a reasonable minimum so it does not get out of hand.

Which I feel is what is happening with the Weapon Master, as I’ve already tried to explain above. Careers are supposed to compliment each other’s weaknesses to form a cohesive unit, where you all fill out a specific role in order to better aid your combined efforts as a team.

The Weapon Master, however, attempts to be the entire team on his own, having no weaknesses that his team has to make up for. He just does everything everyone else already does simultaneously, just slightly worse.

In an RPG scenario, generalist characters work far better if you’re playing alone. However, if you’re in a party, you’d have your luck cut out for you, as you’d almost always want the most qualified person to do the job.

If you’re trying to lift a heavy object, wouldn’t you want the strongest person to do it? Or if you’re trying to convince someone, wouldn’t you want the most charismatic person to attempt it?

The only purpose a generalist would have is to temporarily replace the most qualified person in the event that they are currently unavailable for one reason or another - quite literally a stand-in in every sense of the word. It’s not the real deal, and it’s never going to be the real deal, but it’s the closest to it.

That, to me, does not sound like a fun character design - that you are doomed to do worse than everyone else on the team, just for the sake of being able to do a lot of things.

It’s as the saying goes: “He who can do everything, can never do anything right.”

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I think regardless of how it might be implemented, a Horned Hunter class has a couple really good advantages as far as new careers go; firstly, it’s gonna be unique looking as hell. While it shares vague similarities of theme with Huntsman, no one else on the roster will have crazy antlers on their head. It’s also pretty damn cool.

Also, I would suggest giving it a unique new ranged weapon option of a javelin. It fits well into the theme, and into his role of “big single hit damage”, since a jav is likely to hit like a truck. I could imagine some kind of fist/claw weapon, maybe made from BLESSED ANTLERS or something, too, but that might just be because I really wanna get a punchy weapon in the game. If it’s not Slayer, then a Horned Hunter seems the next most likely option.

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I did think of adding a throwing weapon to the career to make up for the fact that the Horned Hunter couldn’t use ranged weapons (other than the Huntsman’s Longbow), but I decided against it since I wanted to focus on the career itself and what we already have in the game, rather than any new weapons.

Throwable Hunting Spears or Javelins would be neat, and fit both the thematic as well as the playstyle of the career, however, the way Fatshark handled throwing weapons such as the Throwing Axes was by having Bardin be able to recall them back at will, which, in the case of Dwarfen weaponry can be explained by Rune Magic, but it’s far trickier to come up with a good explanation when a Hunting Spear is literally just a pointy stick.

The only thing I can come up with is by having them be blessed by Taal or something, but Taal has never really been mentioned to be a god big on blessings, and when he is, I certainly haven’t heard of “magical spears that return to their owner at will”.

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Yeah, I got nothing there. Asrai Javelins could work, as I could see them magically “growing back” in the user’s hand after being thrown, but for a human?

Maybe he has a reeaaaally long string on them . . .

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