I see these builds online with people stacking 3x +20% healt curios on Zealot, and I can’t help but wonder, maybe I am missing something? Sure it’s a little more eHP since you can only get +17% toughness on curios, but…
thoughnes replenishes on kill and in coherency, unlike health
you can regain toughnes on demand using combat ability
toughness is a lot more important vs ranged
with Faith Restored feat you effectively get 2x toughness most of the time and on demand (ult)
I have been wondering whether anyone would be able to explain to me why raw health would be better than thoughness on a Zealot?
On another note: Is there a reason to stack 3x +30% toughness regeneration vs say flat toughnes or healt bonus?
The same reason why many people stack HP instead of toughness, on damnation anything sneezes in your direction and your toughness is broken. It takes one trash shooter to break your “shield”. Also so called “HP chip damage” exists, so less toughness you have when you are hit, more of that damage penetrates and hits your HP pool.
I think I run toughness regen 3x + 2 HP + 1 toughness curios on my Preacher, mainly because I refuse to waste my time on Fatshark slot machines to get curios with correct defence combinations which suit me (HP, sniper, gunner defence).
I wouldn’t really sweat about what curios you run on zealot and extra toughness regen isn’t necessary a stat you even need. Preachers toughness regen talents are solid, again a personal preference, I like Enemies Within, Enemies Without a lot and Purge The Wicked. With Holy Revenant you will never miss HP unless you end up with high corruption.
One class I would like to try out high toughness build, especially if Fatshark ever rebalances, is Ogryn. I used to run 3x toughness regen with HP curios on my Ogryn with Lynchpin when the toughness regen bug hit a while back. Those were the times. I was getting comments in-game about by toughness regen speed. As a result of the bug I think it was 3 times (?) if not quicker than it should be. People assumed I’m cheating because my toughness would go up so quickly. This will never be as good anymore, but it might be interesting if you combine with a weapon with toughness regen blessings and build toward bleed damage resistance.
Preacher and Veteran don’t need extra toughness. Psyker cannot afford toughness, except toughness regen perks, as its HP pool is low so I rather stack that.
On a Veteran however, I run 3x flat toughness curios + 50% toughness regen ult and 75% toughness ranged damage reduction feat and I hardly ever lose hp in damnation, unless I missplay obviously.
My zealot has 350 hp and it feels great. Having a lot of health lets you take some chip damage and don’t worry about it.
Because Zealots can restore health every 90 seconds.
You should have both. +%toughness regeneration is not a blessing, unlike +%max health or +%toughness.
Toughness is great when you use weapons like Thunderhammer. The reason is quite simple - Thy Wrath Be Swift becomes more important than Holy Revenant for you.
Do you need extra tougness and regen? I don’t play vet much, but I run that talent with Confirmed Kill and Counterfire I never run out of toughness either. In fact if you set up right, you often never run out of the ulti. If you stand next to a Preacher with Benediction…damage resistance will go up even higher. I think that would be extra 15+7.5 %.
I lose toughness all the time, just get it up to 50% with ult every time I’m low and get back into the fray. I got 330 toughness on that Vet so I can afford to loose some.
That 90 sec cooldown is crucial. And I run double ult feat, so if I play it right I can always regain 50% toughness and get 50% toughness damage reducion every time I need. I don’t like leaving things to luck and with that build I feel like I am more in control.
Which curios you should use depends mostly on your skill level. At first you will want wounds, because you’ll be dying a bunch as you learn the ropes. Then you will want health, because you’ll still be getting hit a lot and so taking chip damage. Then you will want toughness, because you won’t be blocking/dodging everything and so still taking a fair bit of toughness damage. Finally you’ll want stamina, so you can block and dodge everything. As you move up the skill ladder you’ll probably want a mix, probably even in your final state.
On my Psyker I run 1x 3+ stam and 2x Toughness with max toughness and ability regen with a splash of stamina regen and block efficiency, I’m the last varlet standing 90% of the time [in HI damnation].
So the health vs toughness equation is a pretty difficult one with a lot of attacks having different multipliers for toughness than for health. For example sniper shots have a X10 multiplier against toughness. If you play all classes you’ll notice that Vet’s 200 toughness doesn’t seem to noticeably reduce their damage unless you’re also in Ult with the unwavering focus feat. Similarly there are things like poxbursters and fire that largely if not entirely ignore toughness. Accordingly having more HP can do more to save you from going down against a number of targets and attack types. Generally speaking if you’re taking very large bursts of damage, or a lot of consecutive attacks in quick succession, HP will do more for your survivability.
That said if you’re fairly good at damage avoidance, and or don’t tend to get hit much by attacks that have high multipliers/ignore toughness, then more max toughness will do significantly more to save you HP damage from chip, and can definitely win out in overall effectiveness. Bursters I don’t find too scary to avoid, and don’t do too much damage even if you occasionally misplay and get hit by them. With Zealot’s Ult and general mobility I similarly don’t find fire bombers or flamers too hard to play around. Snipers can be scary if only for them occasionally catching me off guard before I knew they were there, or when the servers are being rough and timings get thrown off. They do hit very hard but can be mitigated better through the damage resist perk than more HP.
I’m all for full toughness on Zealot personally. Most of the people I’ve talked to on Zealot Discord seem to be similarly minded but I do want to be clear it’s by no means unanimous. There’s an element of preference in it. Just don’t run wounds, and if you must don’t run more than 1 wound curios.
That’s extremely subjective. I run one stamina two toughness curios on Psyker for Damn and it feels very good to me. Psyker is crazy good at damage avoidance in the first place with a lot of builds.
I think ability regen is a very questionable thing to shoot for when it’s like -3 seconds off your Ult for stacking it across 3 curios. Otherwise yeah this is very close to what I run on my Psyker and it’s glorious. Ain’t no melee threat stopping my revives with KD and that bonus stam (KD peril generation from blocking is reduced the bigger your stam pool is). It’s an excellent setup.
Toughness is actually far weaker than what the displayed values say/imply, so generally unless you have a lot of feats, perks and blessings around fortifying it, it just isn’t worth it. I have a post talking about how toughness should be changed because It’s hard to understand, misleading and janky as it currently is. It might cover more info you don’t already know about how toughness works too, if you’re interested.
Yes, it is. Ironically I have done the in-game achievement for not recieving HP damage as a psyker on a damnation game.
You reasoned it fairly well yourself why I don’t think psyker can afford missing out on extra health.
Ironically I have done the in-game achievement for not receiving HP damage as a psyker on a damnation game. With no cheesing like so many veteran sharpshooters or purge staff for that matter.
HOWEVER, with the things as they are in Tide games, chaos which the game director can create, and number of some serious issues, I personally don’t think extra toughness on psyker is worth it. Maybe if you would run an extra wound?
I never miss that extra toughness, I do miss extra health in fairly common situations. The servers have a tendency to say no to your well executed dodges with multiple specials. Toughness won’t save me from: fire damage, pox burster explosions, unavoidable sniper fire (latency, lack of audio que, lack of place/time to dodge), pox bursters bursting out of a door behind you and instantly exploding, mutants or hounds (latency, lack of audio que, lack of place/time to dodge).
The way i tend to look at it is you generally get a much larger bonus out of hp curios vs toughness just from having a much higher base hp. Toughness is also kind of weird as far as melee chip damage goes in that the only thing that matters is to have full toughness.
Generally more toughness isn’t exactly a benefit if your goal is to use it to soak a melee hit and as zealot i don’t really have as much trouble with ranged due to usually running a HH, las gun, or bolt gun. You do get a % of toughness back on charge but remember that your melee kills give back a flat toughness amount as well as regen so having more toughness means that you usually will take longer to hit that 100% point. On top of that toughness DR kind of makes up for only having 100 toughness especially if you run a crit / bleed setup.
I also tend to value hp just because if people do run for grims or we get corruption it has less of an impact vs banking on toughness alone. I also find it much more useful when encountering enemies that auto break toughness such as snipers, flame weapons, and more. On top of that if you do get downed you have way more hp in your 2nd wound so you have a bit more breathing room when it comes to getting to a med station or even having to hold off for the next one if you team is doing fairly badly.
I would say having some extra toughness makes sense for slower swing weapons where you can get stopped in your tracks by the toughness break but for faster swing stuff such as the knife, axe, or heavy sword i tend to having more luck rolling with +hp.
Veteran is, imo, the only class that really has a tough choice between Toughness and Health, since he get so much of it and can boost it rather high.
The rest of us don’t get much, which means it will be more beneficial to stack health and even more so on higher difficulties when Wounds become an issue.
Toughness is only good so long as you can keep above your maximum.
For a 100 toughness user you’d probably need something like 130+ in order to survive 2 hits without taking chip damage and you’d need a lot of RNG help to get to 150+ in order to survive 3 slaps.
Odds are you’re better off simply stacking Health and letting chip damage eat that extra health you just got, while working to get back to 100 toughness, rather than having low health and hoping you won’t get to chip damage range by dropping below 100 toughness.
and as @alsozara does a great job of mentioning, there are other hazards that simply remove or drain your toughness all together, this isn’t just fire and snipers, but getting shot while sprinting removes your toughness on psyker, I also think it does on veteran? and I believe Zealot takes increased toughness on sliding?
In these situations it’s a LOT more beneficial to having +health.
And looking at the RNG gods, it seems like 20% Health with a 4-5% kicker on curios seem to be dropping a lot more than toughness combinations. I seldom see a single curio with more than 15% toughness.
You can think of it like this.
With higher health you’re buying yourself some needed margin of error.
While with higher toughness you’re getting a slightly larger safety net.
The effects of both will do very similar things, but each on will benefit a certain play style more than the other. You simply have to see which one you like the most.
I’d say for most people they’d benefit from a larger margin of error.
Something to test out for yourself is not picking one above the other.
This means trying to get at least 130 toughness and 125 health.
Here you’re actually getting the benefit of both, as you’re getting a small chip dmg buffer while also getting a two slap toughness buffer.
I’m testing this on my psyker at the moment, and so far I feel like it might be better than only stacking one or the other.
I agree with what you said. I guess this boils down to playstyle, and mine seems to favor toughness over health, but I got one as perks and the other as blessings so I am actually running that hybrid you mentioned in the end.
Am I wrong to conclude from this discussion that thoughness regeneration on a Zealot is not worth taking over flat healt/toughness at this point in time?
I would like to correct you on that. While coherency regen is a flat 5 at 4/4 people, melee kills actually give 5% so not a flat amount. Weirdly enough, sharpshooter gets a unique 7.5% on melee kill on top of having twice as much max toughness. Therefore with +66% toughness (the max possible) on curios, a sharpshooter can get 24.9 toughness per melee kill. I have recovered over 200 toughness in 1 swing with a power sword before. It’s stupid.
