[Zealot] Reworked

[CopperBack1]

Restructure Tree?

• Yes
• No
• Other

Misc Talent Tree Stats

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This time organized it in easier picture format. Post Blitz favored bundled talents similar to Ogryn DR and Psyker corners for specific styles such a sprint, damage reduction and range themes. Still a general theme of left side (heavy / range), middle (support / survival) and right side (fast / weakspot / backstab).

Number adjustments and better recommendations desired. (added Other option for numbers too high or too low on some nerfs/buffs… some polls could not be modified once started.)

Post your own filler talents

Because many of my failures will need replacements to match Ogryns massive amount. You may find it harder to have ideas then strike them down as well.

(Total talent options are now equivielant to Ogryn Rework 94, New Zealot 94 (old 74), Psyker 93, Veteran 98. Start to keystone remains 17 points, Vet 17-18, Psyker 16-17, Ogryn 14-16)

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Baseline Normalization:

• Class Iconics: Until Death, Zealous Blur

Until Death: Fatal Damage instead grants you invulnerability for 5s. CD of 300s. (tax talented to lower to 180s)

Zealous Blur: While sprinting, sliding, dodging +25% toughness damage reduction.

• Normalize Toughness damage taken while sprinting, sliding, dodgeing to 1.0 (all classes, Zealot iconic replaces hidden feature at +25% instead)(another +25% TDR re-added via zealot talent)

• Normalize Sprint Speed to 5 (Many movement new/old based talents for aggressive behavior)

• Normalize Stamina Delay/Regens to 1

• Zealot gains 1 wound baseline. (front liner + Martyrdom usage)

• Max Weapon sprint speed is reduced to 0.8 from 0.98

• Flat Nodes removed: Supression, Stamina, 1 Movement, 1 Melee, Health, 1 Toughness, 1 TDR

• Flat Nodes Added: 5% Crit, 5% Ranged Damage

Reasoning: If it works for big slow pincushion Ogryn easier for tiny humans, should baseline stats in general making talents all the easier to understand. Favoring more impactful Iconics for every class.

Baseline Changes?

• Yes
• No
• Other / Some

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Tier 1 (Pre-Blitz Nodes)

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Enemies within Enemies without: Regenerate 3% toughness per second while at least 3 enemies or allies are within 5 meters.

Current: Regenerate 2.5% toughness per second while at least 3 enemies or allies are within 5 meters

Reasoning: Tuned for regrouping with allies and better play on namesake.

• Yes
• No

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Fortitude in Fellowship: +50% Coherency Radius and Regeneration

*Current:+50% regeneration. *

Reasoning: All coherency boosters are weak should be combined at very least.

• Yes
• No
• Other

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Voice of Terra: Regenerate 4% toughness on range kill, and additional 6% toughness on elite or specialist ranged kill.

Current: 4% flat rate

Reasoning: Boost to priority target range kills for slow high impact weapons.

• Yes
• No

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Second Wind: Replenish 10% toughness on successful dodge.

Current: 15% toughness

Reasoning: small tweaking nerf likely needs more reduction.

• Yes
• No
• Other

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Blitz Nodes

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Blades of Faith: Same, remove replenishment on kills (Talent Sync Tax next to restore function)

Current: replenishment on melee elite & special kills

Reasoning: Over tuned for flat blitz talent point, re-added utility in tax blitz talent point.

• Yes
• No
• Other

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Scavenger: Melee elite & special kills restore 1 knife. (Locks out Blind Faith)

Reasoning: Powerful for baseline added tax talent for functionality.

• Yes
• No

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Blind Faith: blades of faith gain slight seeking behavior, on hold and lock greater seeking and +50% damage but consumes 2 knives on use regardless.
(Locks out Scavenger)

• Yes
• No

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Holy Stunstorm Grenade of Atoma: Stunstorm grenade increases damage taken by stunned targets by 20%.

• Yes
• No
• Other

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Extra Napalm: Immolation Grenade blast and burn radius increased by 50%

• Yes
• No
• Other

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Tier 2 (Pre-Aura Nodes)

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**Flat Nodes:

5% Toughness Damage Reduction (TDR)

5% Movement Speed (Mo)

5% Ranged Damage (RD)**

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Shield of Contempt: When you or an ally in coherency takes damage, reduce it by 50% Triggers once every 10 seconds.

Current: When you or an ally in coherency takes damage, they gain +60% damage reduction for 4s. Triggers once every 10 seconds.

Reasoning: Does not prevent triggering damage for little burst resistance, now effects burst damage instead of a post damage… damage resistance.

• Yes
• No

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Enduring Faith: +25% toughness damage reduction on critical hit for 5s.

Current: +50% toughness damage reduction on critical hit for 4s

Reasoning: Too much TDR focused on quick auto crit weapons and builds, slightly more usability for slow weapons and reasonable TDR levels.

• Yes
• No
• Other

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Good Balance: A successful dodge grants +25% toughness damage reduction for 5s.

Current: A successful dodge grants +25% damage reduction for 2.5s

Reasoning: Short DR for already avoiding damage… extended duration and changed to toughness damage reduction for balancing.

• Yes
• No
• Other

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Restoring Faith: Begin match at 2 wounds, restore 1 health every 5s up to current lost wounds, no longer able to use Med Kits, Med Stations or Health Stims (Pre-Req. For Holy Revenant)

Current: On taking damage heal 20% of that damage over 4s

Reasoning: Natural Bond from V2 to fit Martyrdom play-style. Trades 33% + health (new 3 wound zealot greater health loss for extra wound curio /talents) for trickling healing up to current wound. This also acts as a tax talent to Until Death heal/CDR. Also providing passive team buff of more meds.

• Yes
• No

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Holy Revenant: When Until Death ends, you regain Health based on Damage you dealt during Until Death, to a maximum of 25% Max Health. Melee Damage dealt heals for 3 times that amount. Until Death CD reduced by 120s.

Current: No CD reduction

Reasoning: Short DR for dodging damage… extended duration and changed to toughness damage reduction for balancing, still increased Until Death CD by 60s with this reduction, due to its powerful survival ability.

• Yes
• No

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Dance of Death: -75% spread, -50% recoil, +25% swap speed for 5s on successful dodge.

Current: no swap speed, for 3s.

Reasoning: Currently fun talent for high spread/recoil weapons could be fun option for slow weapons too, increasing swap speed and duration for added use.

• Yes
• No

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Thy Wrath be Swift: Immune to stuns on melee hit for 2s, In addition +25% toughness damage reduction while moving, sliding and dodging. (Baseline +25% TDR while mobile removed)

Current: On enemy melee hit +15% movement speed and immune to melee stuns.(Baseline +50& TDR while mobile in class)

Reasoning: Currently encourages zealots to run from combat instead of face it…attacking gain immunity instead more in-line with Zealot ideology. Added new mobility talents elsewhere. Restores half current baseline mobility TDR.

• Yes
• No

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Sainted Gunslinger: +6% reload speed on melee kill stacks 5x, after reload gain +5% toughness damage reduction for 5s per stack.

Current: No TDR

Reasoning: range flavored TDR, very limited to reload not as consistent as current dodge TDR.

• Yes
• No

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Unremitting: Your melee hits gain +5% movement speed for 3s stacks up to 3 times.

Current: -20% sprint stamina cost

Reasoning: Currently weak talent similar to curio secondary regains some lost movement boosts from nodes/talents and abilities by rewarding aggressive actions instead of retreating.

• Yes
• No

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Aura Nodes

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Beacon of Purity: Restores 1 health every second up to half current lost wound and remove 1 corruption healing 1 health per corruption removed every second for you and allies in coherency.**

Current: Remove 1.5 corruption from your current wound healing 1.5 health per corruption removed every second for you and allies in coherency.

Reasoning: heal corruption at slightly slower rate but built in trickle to half wound heal inspired by Kerrillian aura. Synergizes with new restore faith to finsih off other half of wound heal but very slowed rate rewarding taking no damage.

• Yes
• No

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Emperor’s Calling: When Zealot leaves coherency allies gain 10% toughness and Zealot gains 5% movement speed for 5s & 5% Toughness regeneration over 5s stacking up to 3 times, ally toughness regeneration can only occur once every 10 seconds.

Paragon of Faith:(Seneshal.23.8) Alternative option, You and allies in coherency gain -15% stamina cost.

Current: Loner, zealot always in coherency of at least 2

Reasoning: Loner is anti-team aura, aura. Zealot gains speed boost to engage distant enemies and allies gain immediate toughness boost. Encouraging regrouping and supporting team.

Alt. Zealot gains sprint-based Aura without encroaching on Veteran’s and that work well together.

• Emperor’s Calling
• Paragon of Faith
• Loner

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Tier 3 (Pre- Ability Nodes)

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** Flat Nodes +15 Toughness (T)**

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Desperation: Up to +10% damage based on depleted Stamina.

Current: +20% melee damage for 5s after depletion of stamina.

Reasoning: Allows for more usage extremely rare/forced to deplete stamina and rapid regeneration rates when not in use at lower damage boost, but to include range with supporting linked talent below(Emp. Bullet).

• Yes
• No

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Hammer of Faith: Zealot does +10% Damage to staggered enemies.

Current: 30% Impact Strength

Reasoning: Staggered enemies often non-weakspot hits need damage boost to compare with raw damage weakspot builds.

• Yes
• No

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The Emperor’s Bullet: Restore 100% stamina on depleting full clip, increase reload speed by 20% while at 100% stamina consuming 50% at end of reload.

Current: Gives your melee attacks 30% Impact Strength & 10% attack speed for 5s after emptying your ranged weapon.

Reasoning: Synergy with stamina talents increasing range damage on fast reload or melee sprint engagement when out of ammo, depending on scenario.

• Yes
• No

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Duelist: +50% Weakspot and Critical Damage on next 2 weakspot or critical hits after successful dodge.

Current: for 3s

Reasoning: Still a potent damage boost but more critical timings and dueling characteristic of dodge specific attack and counter.

• Yes
• No
• Other

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Scourge: Melee hits on bleeding enemies grant 10% critical chance for 5s, stacks 2x. (New Tax talent prior to regain crit on bleed, additional crit nodes to regain crit)

Current: Melee crits add bleed, 3 stacks

Reasoning: Too much for one talent removed bleed on crit adding it instead to a tax talent prior to selecting, while extending duration for slower weapons in addition there is another passive crit node to regain 5% flat crit.

• Yes
• No

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Ability Nodes

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Unburdened Zeal: Fury of the Faithful also gain +20% movement speed and damage reduction for 5s. Hitting an enemy during charge with next hit bonus does double damage.

New Talent (UZ)

Reasoning: Talent sync extra speed and DR for the cautious Zealot. Extra damage for the talented Zealot.

• Yes
• No

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Redoubled Zeal: Gain additional charge but at 33% increased cooldown.

Current: Additional charge only

Reasoning: Zealot has tremendous CD reduction talents with little trade-offs, this is typical CD increase of a 2nd charge, requires trade-off choices with more planned CD usage and less spam usage in mind.

• Yes
• No

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Chorus of Spiritual Fortitude: Wield a Holy Relic that releases pulses of energy every 0.8s, 3 times. While channeling, allies in coherency have stun immunity. Each pulse replenishes 25% toughness to allies in coherency. If the ally is at full toughness they instead gain +25 Max toughness. 60S base cooldown.

Current: 5 pulses, added invulnerability, 20% toughness per pulse to reach +100% Max toughness over +75.

Reasoning: Too good in duration and invulnerability, excessive perks to be added with further talents / trade offs.

• Yes
• No

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Banishing Light: Each Pulse also staggers and suppresses enemies within coherency (locks out Eternal Light)

Current: Builds up stagger distance with each pulse

Reasoning: more immediate distance staggering for better special resistance, less at max pulse.

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Eternal Light: channeling also grants invulnerability to you and allies in coherency and for 3s after. (Locks out Banishing Light)

Current: N/A New ability choice branch

Reasoning: loss of stagger but guaranteed of allies / self being invulnerable during and for an additional 3s after, more vulnerable to special interruption.

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Holy Cause, Ecclesiarch’s Call: extended buffs to channel duration as well as after canceled or finished.

Current: buffs only proc after final pulse.

Reasoning: More useful team buffs.

Splitting apart Chorus talents in general?

• Yes
• No
• Other

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Shroudfield: Enter stealth for 3s confusing aggroed enemies for duration or until attacked. While in stealth gain +20% movement speed, pass through enemies, +100% backstab damage, finesse damage & critical chance. Exiting stealth taunts confused enemies. Base Cooldown 45s

Current: enemies immediately de-aggro and attack allies while blocking zealot’s path, and often do not re-aggro on zealot

Reasoning: Provide a buffer pseudo stun period and re-aggro of enemies depending on un-stealth, ally attacking, or duration while also adding Zealot mobility to lining up for proper backstabs and longer CD for powerful ability equivalent to Veteran stealth.

• Yes
• No

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Tier 4 (Pre- Keystone Nodes)

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Flat Node: +5 Melee Damage (MD), +5% Critical Chance (Cr)

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Invocation of Death: +100% ability cooldown regeneration for 2s on melee critical hits.(locks out other CDR talents)**

Current: +200% ability cooldown regeneration for 4s on melee critical hits.

Reasoning: Extremely easy up time for crit heavy builds making CD’s too spam-able. Nerfing regeneration and period, making abilities more impactful. Removing double dipping on CDRs

• Yes
• No

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Martyrs Purpose: Ability cooldown reset on toughness break, can only occur once ever 60s (locks out other CDR talents)

Current: 1% of damage taken converted to ability CD reduction

Reasoning: Powerful alternative and emergency CD more aligned to Martyr play style. Removing double dipping on CDRs

• Yes
• No

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Pious Cutthroat: Back stab kill restore 5%-20% CD based on target killed, weakspot kills gain half the reduction, weakspot backstab kills gain double. (locks out other CDR talents)

Current: Back stab kills restore 20% of ability CD

Reasoning: Rewarding CD reduction based on target killed as well as adding weakspot kills to broaden tree, double bonus for weakspot backstab kill, Ogryn+ 20%, Elites/Specials 10%, un-tag-ables 5%. Removing double dipping on CDRs.

• Yes
• No

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** Flat Nodes +5% Melee Damage, +5% Critical Hit**

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Punishment: Melee attacks that hit at least 3 enemies grant 30% impact strength and Zealot becomes uninterruptible for 5s.

Current: Stacks up to 5 times for 25% impact strength and uninterruptible.

Reasoning: More impact boost because no one knows what it does anyway, by time it takes to gather 5 stacks no longer need uninterruptible too low of a gain.

• Yes
• No

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Grievous Wound: Enemies you stagger receive 10% brittleness for 5s stacks up to 2x.

Current: +50% Stagger on weakspot hit.

Reasoning: Brittleness on stagger equivalent to other classes at slower pace. (Moved to Tier 4 Left)

• Yes
• No

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Faithful Frenzy: 2 Handed weapons gain +10% melee attack speed, 1 Handed Weapons gain +5% melee critical chance & melee critical hit damage, ranged weapons gain 5% damage.

Current: +10% melee attack speed.

Reasoning: Weapon specific bonus specific per weapon low flat bonus for ease of use.

• Yes
• No

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Keystone Nodes

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I Shall Not Fall: Martyrdom grants +6.5% toughness damage reduction, toughness regeneration and total toughness per missing wound.

Current: toughness damage reduction only

Reasoning: Better survive-ability on low health / curio total toughness loss.

• Yes
• No

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Inexorable Justice: Moving & successful dodging grants you momentum up to 10 stacks. When you hit an enemy spend all momentum, gaining 2% Melee attack speed, 2% Range damage, & 5% stamina for 6s.

*Current: Moving grants you momentum up to 10 stacks. When you hit an enemy spend all momentum, gaining 1% attack speed and 1% damage for 6s *

Reasoning: More competitive mobility keystone and movement based synergy by adding dodge momentum baseline, adding stamina restore, less stacking, number fiddling giving more range flavor for keystone.

• Yes
• No

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Inebriate’s Poise: Momentum stacks also grant 2% rending, and 2% reload speed for 5s.

*Current: Successful dodges grant 3 momentum *

Reasoning: More competitive mobility keystone and movement based synergy by adding dodge momentum baseline, adding stamina restore, less stacking, number fiddling giving more range flavor for keystone.

• Yes
• No

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NEW Talent Fillers

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Tier 2 (Post Blitz)

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Hidden Knives: Damage attackers and break nets on taking a melee hit, Can only occur once every 20s(Locks Master’s Retribution / Master’s Retribution Locks this talent).

HK, Post-Blitz Talent

Reasoning: Talent sync and useful self save if trappers are your issue, large risk at procing early off CD. Damage equivalent of a body shot throwing knife. Locking other special escape talent for balance.

• Yes
• No

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Endurance Training: While at 100% stamina, +50 Toughness Damage Reduction damage on next melee hit, consumes stamina proportionate to hit up to 50% stamina.

Reasoning: Talent Sync, utility, high DR for 1 time hits at consumption of stamina. (ET)

• Yes
• No

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Tier 3 (Post Aura)

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Pushing Faith: Successful pushes restore 5% toughness, +20% stagger strength and +10% toughness damage reduction for 5s.

Reasoning: New stagger, TDR & toughness regen for push style game-play. (PF)

• Yes
• No

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Sweet Spot: Every 4th backstab hit becomes as weakspot backstab hit.

Reasoning: Backstab boost for non-weakspot backstabs… also Riddick reference 4th lumbar down. (SS)

• Yes
• No

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Blood Drinker: Critical hits apply 1 bleed. Nearby enemies who die from bleeds replenish 2.5% toughness

Reasoning: Too much for one talent added in Scourge added small toughness replenishment as tax return bonus. (BD) (MixedLetter’s Inspired Idea)

• Yes
• No

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Tier 4 (Post Ability)

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Grounded in Truth: Knockbacks, pulls & throws distance are greatly reduced.

Reasoning: Talent sync, useful for tanking barrels, bosses and specials. (GiT)

• Yes
• No

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Faith Un-Blinded: Zealot sees through smoke, gas and flames and reduces their damage & corruption by 10%.

Reasoning: Talent sync, useful for standing in fire. (FuB)

• Yes
• No

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Clense the Heretic: Non-taggable enemies & monsters burn (minimal damage) with range attacks, active burning enemies increase close range damage by 5% stacking 5 times.

Reasoning: encouraging a flame range zealot flavor that synergizes with fire skills and close range shooting. Very enemy reliant as damage boosts will drop off quickly if only trash is on fire but may be ignited by other sources allies, flame grenade, flame thrower, laz gun crit blessings. (CtH)

• Yes
• No

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Sucker Punch: +20% damage to non-weakspot melee hits

Reasoning: Hitting weakspots will become harder when staggered and non-weakspot hits will do less damage in general so slight boost to damage when staggering. (SP)

• Yes
• No

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Battle Rhythm: Push attacks gain +10% damage, on push attack kill the next attack gains +10% critical hit chance, and when that critical hit, hits restore 25% stamina.

Reasoning: More push focused game play… fun to make combo. (BR)

• Yes
• No

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Field Interrogation: On elite kill highlight closest special enemy for 5s

Reasoning: Talent Sync, utility. Backstab tree usually ahead behind enemy lines and in danger. (FI)

• Yes
• No

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Master Reflexes: On perfect block next attack gains +100% damage and impact. (Blocks all melee damage and consumes no stamina)

Reasoning: Talent Sync, utility. (MR)

• Yes
• No

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Specialist: Improved weapon special effects (Unique / Varies per weapon. Activation speed, duration, damage, stagger… flashlights while ADS or stagger while not, hold flamethrower up to light surrounding area.)

Reasoning: Weapon special love for the melee specialist. (St)

• Yes
• No

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Emperor Provides: 5% chance on any player ammo pick up to gain 33% of Blitz ammunition

Reasoning: Talent Sync, utility. (EP)

• Yes
• No

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Faith’s Endurance: while above 75% stamina immune to range attacks while sprinting.

Reasoning: Lower window than stripped down for all weapons, niche sprint immunity while at high stamina. (FE)

• Yes
• No

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Live by the Sword: while ranged weapon is empty, +10% damage reduction, +1 to dodge maximum and restore 1 dodge when spending last bullet.

Reasoning: Talent Sync, utility.(LS)

• Yes
• No

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You made it! every comment will be liked!! since you made it!!!

[tool2101]

Sorry didn’t read them so im not sure if they are positive, but im all for changes and reworks, it brings “freshness” to the game, more hours to play and test builds.

[CopperBack1]

No problem, it is a beast of a read. I Tried to give equal buffs to nerfs and, like new Ogryn tree, problems will arise in practice of which talent to pick or lose with so many options compared to the current easy choices between 74 points singularly powerful choice talents.

Reluctantly added polls so at least you can interact in smaller chunks >.<
nerfs likely be unpopular…

[psyk]

@CopperBack1

Martyrs Purpose: Ability cooldown reset on toughness break, can only occur once ever 60s (locks out other CDR talents)

this is still bad and worse than the current talent
any rework idea for zealot that doesnt have a singular node before and after blitz gets a no from me.
also shroudfield, punishment, beacon of purity, loner need to be replaced with something else entirely
beacon of purity does not function with its own keystone

[CopperBack1]

@psyk

any rework idea for zealot that doesnt have a singular node before and after blitz gets a no from me.

After is a TDR but before got me, taking more inspiration from Psyker who i think was the rework before Ogryn and not wanting them all to look exactly the same either. Current Veteran also fails this test with more taxing before and after Blitz, I think will be my next target if I continue.

@psyk

this is still bad and worse than the current talent

I guess the actual number crunch of current Martyrdom still eludes me… but for this adjustment it could be more about timing for example using an ability while taking damage then that damage pushes you past toughness break resets it instantly more of a safety net talent in place of a more consistent damage to CDR as is now… but seeing as the abilities tend to regenerate large amounts of toughness maybe be the same after all… was also considering a wound drop would trigger but that may be the same as toughness regen then break.

@psyk

beacon of purity

I kind of agree but certain people also find it useful so playing the middle ground. =/

[psyk]

@CopperBack1

crunch of current Martyrdom still eludes me

idk if its just the numbers its hard to fit in a cdr mechanic with marty in general.

the way fatshark intended for marty to be played is for someone to play the game normally and get buffs when the situation gets bad but then they heal again which very little people do.

I think maybe something thats not even related to HP/toughness would work better. because losing 200hp for 2 charges of chastise isnt great and getting your toughness broken for 2 charges instead good either

[CopperBack1]

Perhaps not taking damage could cdr as well as 50-100% cdr after not taking damage for 5s with caveat of reset on toughness break.

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I must say I’m quite surprised at the amount of no to restructure zealot talent tree rather than other restructure

[OxygenCrimson]

One of my main problems with Zealot’s tree is its structure, which is organized in such a way that making detours for specific nodes from other paths is incredibly costly no matter what node you want. It’s especially noticeable in case of Blitz - if you want to take a different Blitz than the one right on your chosen main path, it will cost you 4-6 talents points.

Yes, 4-6. The minimum is 4 and you can’t go below that - but you can have a worst case scenario of 6 points if you need a Blitz fom the opposite side of the tree but have to continue on your path after that - for example, if you wanted Vicious Offering and Benediction (Aura), then taking Blades of Faith would cost you 6 talent points. The worst case for Veteran is 2, for Ogryn it’s 0 (he can always choose the Blitz freely) and for Psyker it’s 7 - but such a case for Psyker is purely theoretical while his (quite frequent) best case is 0.

Your suggested structure has the same issue of point taxes, so I don’t think it’s a good rework just based on that property alone.

[CopperBack1]

@OxygenCrimson

it will cost you 4-6

I’d say 4 talents to choose an alternative blitz if you want a node near another zealot blitz 4 to take it and another 4 to get desired blitz… kinda like a 7 talent tax.

I’m unsure where your getting theses numbers though

@OxygenCrimson

Psyker it’s 7

Lowest pre blits talent is only 2 deep and if you happen to want blitz on other side its also 2 deep + flat node before blitz. 4 tax worst case scenario to a Zealot 7.

@OxygenCrimson

Your suggested structure has the same issue of point taxes, so I don’t think it’s a good rework just based on that property alone.

I’d think I’d rather do a structure post next, but yes you have to have tax talents somewhere and don’t want all the structures to look the same. A choice has to be made where the taxes lie.

Ogryn restructure took the easy way out by having that central flat talent before and after…arguably OP structure. Veteran kind of modelled this but only on one side of the blitz at the cost of more tax talents after to cross over, the post talent tax to cross is just as bad in design and talent cost. Zealot suffers from both.

I’ll have to start calculating the spread between each major choice but from start to keystone Ogryn can reach it in 14 (16max for middle) steps leaving him over half free talents to cherry pick… its really nice but potentially OP. Zealot and Veteran take at least 17, with more long funnels and the potential above worst case scenario… which leads to one optimal talent build non-choice.

While my tree design may not be optimal… (which could be OP and boring if all trees were the same) it’s also intentional for balance while cutting down on the major 4 funnel back tracks to 2 with shorter horizontal tax cost of 2 from 3, some lock out choices after aura… (but i don’t think aura as hard of choice as blitz) the hardest choices will likely be which to pick up at the end as well.

@OxygenCrimson

Your suggested structure has the same issue of point taxes, so I don’t think it’s a good rework just based on that property alone.

I think it would be a mistake if every major choice looked like ogryn’s blitz next would be every aura, ability and keystone converging before making a choice… though FS could design it this way it would be less character to trees but more choice.

Thanks for comment gives me more to think about and some more math analysis to do and compare every tree.

[OxygenCrimson]

Zealot

The best case for Zealot is something like this:

You want only the Blitz swapped and don’t mind any changes to the nodes you end up with after the Blitz. In this example, we want to have both Enduring Faith/Second Wind as well as Stunstorm Grenade - the the path leading up to the new Blitz costs us 4 talent points, Blitz is swapped with no repercussions so we don’t need additional talent point for it bringing us to a total of 4 talent points tax.

Worst case for Zealot is along those lines:

We want a Blitz from the opposite side of the tree, but since in this case we do actually mind where we end up after the Blitz as we would only take one node from the row below the Blitz and now we have to take three of them if we want to preserve the rest of our tree, eg. the Benediction Aura. When the Blitz is the only thing we want to change (i.e. don’t care about any talents on the other path), this is the worst case scenario at 6 talent points.

Psyker

For Psyker, the worst case looks something like this:

Again, we assume the absolute worst case where you cannot drop any talent from your original path nor exchange Aura or Ability and so on. There are many options here but they all cost the same and it’s 6 talent points (the Blitz is swapped so that doesn’t cost us anything as usual).
Notably however, the worst case for Psyker is likely unheard of simply due to the positioning of other talents.

Also, my previous assessment of Psyker’s worst case scenario being 7 points is incorrect since we can do it for just 6 points - so good thing you questioned me on this statement. I did mistakenly count an additional upgrade for the Blitz into the cost there.

Tree Structure

While your structure does improve the situation somewhat, it still has bad worst cases. For example taking Holy Revenant without Beacon of Purity is a 4 point tax. If I wanted to use Thy Wrath Be Swift and Second Wind, swapping Blades of Faith for Stunstorm Grenade is a 3 point tax as well. We are also being locked out of abilities based on Aura which shouldn’t be the case unless there’s a balancing reason for it better than ‘to make the tree interesting’ or ‘to have some variety’.

The simpler the tree structure, the better. It sounds like you’re concerned with making it flashy when it’s the least important quality of a talent tree that also comes at a high price - as shown with Psyker, Ogryn and Veteran tree reworks (Veteran was even missing Keystones after patch 13). Talent trees from Vermintide 2 weren’t flashy in the slightest and did their job much better than this clumsy mess we’ve got here in Darktide.

[CopperBack1]

@OxygenCrimson

Worst case for Zealot is along those lines:

Interesting way to count, my worst case scenario was only for the pre part. Certainly some of these tax talents will be useful but if you goal was to reach 1 then the other this is my worst case idea.

At some point best case is not a tree at all but picking from a pile with no trade-offs

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@OxygenCrimson

for example taking Holy Revenant without Beacon of Purity is a 4 point tax

That is intentional talent tax for strongest survival ability in game, with vast tax savings as below its not much to ask IMO.

@OxygenCrimson

If I wanted to use Thy Wrath Be Swift and Second Wind, swapping Blades of Faith for Stunstorm Grenade is a 3 point tax as well.

But a similar issue in current tree would be a 6 point tax, I think 3 points a vast improvement and some taxes are inevitable in order to keep talent system still as trees and unique structures. If DT wanted to make them more uniform could do as Ogryn pre-post blitz nodes for every key choice… the most negative taxes would be considered going left to right then than the vertical ones.

Going to leave my counting here for any interested, still have to analyze myself off to work.

Talent counts pretty straight forward. abilities/keystones start to have lock outs so the dash second number lowered by unchosen locks…not necessary to count but useful for post total counts. Total - (minus) Locks, just subtracted the major choices you did not choose, locked out parts of some trees, and my new CDR lock outs. Missed Talents, After core choices your Total-Locks minus your pool of 50 talent choices shows how many things you could have picked otherwise…if we had about ~30 more talent points we could have everything much less on some classes.

Spreads, meaning shortest-furthest distance to the next major choice in tree.
Reach / U-turn, being the worst case scenario if you want to spread in a direction and have to reach for a specific passive in tree if it is available.

Interesting comparing trees, Zealot overall lowest talents at 83. Lowest missed talents thus lowest choices when considering lack of core ability talents.

Reduced flat nodes for more passives, blitz and ability options. The spread distance between major choices reduced for worst cases, the U-Turn choices for reaching a specific passive greatly reduced. All should allow for more talent choices. Ogryn has slightly better spreads mostly due to its short path to keystone.

[OxygenCrimson]

@CopperBack1

Interesting way to count, my worst case scenario was only for the pre part. Certainly some of these tax talents will be useful but if you goal was to reach 1 then the other this is my worst case idea.

This is a case for when only a single talent is desirable. In current Zealot tree you have to settle for one of the three paths, so you have to spend four points in at least one path at the start no matter what you do. This is why I don’t count those talents as being lost - because you have to pick a path with four talent points whatever you do.

@CopperBack1

That is intentional talent tax for strongest survival ability in game, with vast tax savings as below its not much to ask IMO.

Then I don’t think it works as intended because going for the middle Aura you get it without any tax at all. It’s only a tax if you want to take it from the left or right, and similarily taking any talent that is above an Aura aside from Holy Revenant - no matter what it is - costs 3 talent points as well.
It should also be noted that Holy Revenant is an upgrade of Until Death and as such has to have it as its prerequisite. This is not the case in your tree structure.
I don’t think I saw Until Death in your tree at all, though - I was looking for this icon, mind pointing it out for me?

Obviously, if your idea includes alterations to Holy Revenant that would make it independent of Until Death then please ignore this entire paragraph.

@CopperBack1

But a similar issue in current tree would be a 6 point tax, I think 3 points a vast improvement and some taxes are inevitable in order to keep talent system still as trees and unique structures. If DT wanted to make them more uniform could do as Ogryn pre-post blitz nodes for every key choice… the most negative taxes would be considered going left to right then than the vertical ones.

Swapping a Blitz should ideally be a 0 point maneuver since it doesn’t interact with any other part of the tree (the only exception here being Veteran). Similar argument could be made for Aura and Combat Ability as well (and I think it should be the case), but in the current Zealot tree those two are nowhere near as offensive as Blitz - Aura has limited impact while Ability has a point tax of 2-4 (4 is very rare since most builds want Faithful Frenzy) so it’s just not that bad.
When doing an overhaul though, such issues should be removed as opposed to being just mitigated IMO.

@CopperBack1

At some point best case is not a tree at all but picking from a pile with no trade-offs

Yes, although with two additional conditions: that the choices are weighed (and as such have different point cost), and that some of them are just mutually exclusive. It is the best option but unfortunately it doesn’t look flashy or gamey enough so developers rarely consider it. The form present in VT2, DRG and KF2 is the next best thing - but Darktide team has unfortunately failed to learn from its predecessor(s) or competitors in many ways which is why we got the flashy, bloated talent trees instead.
But well, that is another story that I don’t think should be discussed here at all since it’s as off-topic as it gets.

[CopperBack1]

@OxygenCrimson

Then I don’t think it works as intended because going for the middle Aura you get it without any tax at all.

Thats true maybe i should remove its connection to aura to be a true tax. The pre-talent also may be considered a tax as it reduces wound level and removes healing from meds.

@OxygenCrimson

It should also be noted that Holy Revenant is an upgrade of Until Death and as such has to have it as its prerequisite. This is not the case in your tree structure.
I don’t think I saw Until Death in your tree at all, though - I was looking for this icon, mind pointing it out for me?

Also true, as a part of Zealot rework in this tree’s design Until Death becomes an iconic ability and Unholy Revenate does the same plus reduce Until Death CD. The iconic version has a larger cooldown than current standard.

@OxygenCrimson

Swapping a Blitz should ideally be a 0 point maneuver since it doesn’t interact with any other part of the tree (the only exception here being Veteran).

I guess I disagree, but could do this with all blitz at least I assume you’d also want this post blitz as well so psyker’s lock outs are an issue for you? unless you pick Smite you lose 2 unique passive talents.

[OxygenCrimson]

@CopperBack1

I guess I disagree, but could do this with all blitz at least I assume you’d also want this post blitz as well so psyker’s lock outs are an issue for you? unless you pick Smite you lose 2 unique passive talents.

Yes, though it never hurt me that much in case of Psyker. But in an ideal world I’d like no such lockouts, at least not based on Blitz. There are other cases where those I think could be reasonable, but they are beyond the scope of this discussion.

Example of such a case

Veteran has a talent called “Tactical Awareness” which reduces the cooldown on his Ability by 6s whenever he kills a Specialist. It makes the already overtuned Voice of Command become entirely abhorrent in higher difficulties, you can literally spam it every 5-10s. And I repeat literally beacause this word is used here in its actual meaning, 5-10s cooldown on Voice of Command in Aurics is not just doable - it’s common.
This should be locked out of Voice of Command, or, ideally, made into an upgrade to Executioner’s Stance since it’s the only Ability where it’s balanced.