Yet Again: How does the game's difficulty feel?

[CobaltNinja]

Been a while since my last poll regarding the game difficulty, and UL&L has dropped, making it easier to get optimal equipment, along with some rebalancing. Here’s a redux of the polls.

Responses are private this time.

What difficulty do you MAINLY play on?

• Sedition
• Uprising
• Malice
• Heresy
• Damnation
• Maelstrom
• Heresy (Aurics)
• Damnation (Aurics)
• Maelstrom (Aurics)

OVERALL, how difficult does the game feel to you?

• Too easy to the point of being unfun
• Easier than it should be, but still fun
• Just right
• Harder than it should be, but still fun
• Too hard to the point of being unfun

How do you feel about player power?

• Players are far too weak
• Players are weaker than they should be
• Players are balanced fine
• Players are stronger than they should be
• Players are far too strong

How do you feel about enemy power?

• Enemies are far too weak
• Enemies are weaker than they should be
• Enemies are balanced fine
• Enemies are stronger than they should be
• Enemies are far too strong

Discussion follows. Stay civil, fellas.

[JanZamoysky]

I’m not sure how accurate this is tbh, a lot of so called mael difficulty modifiers aren’t hard, they are just annoying: dog, mutant, burster waves, snipers are NOT difficult, just tedious.

Not all maps are equally hard, due to the map design. Some the event arenas are harder, certain map sections act as killzones, chokepoints and are harder to kite due to drop downs and “no return” areas. Mob spawns are also uneven, some maps have sparser, less intense spawns.

Certain mixes of melee only, monstrous, and even pox gas, can be difficult especially without anti-monster builds. A large part of the game difficulty is down to audio issues, which then isn’t really a difficulty modifier…or is it? Nothing beats a silent green trapper which pops around a near by corner with no warning at the worst moment possible. You get the idea.

[morfin]

1 Im calling this one being skewed towards 70%+ between maelstrom and damnation aurics, almost no xbozos on this forum
2) Classes have very little to no weaknesses. basic number crunching decreases ttk on high threat targets to ~0-1s unless you’re deliberately gimping yourself
3) As previosly stated, armored enemies are not threatening enough and get completely bend over by overabundance of rending, brittleness, absurd finesse buffs, high base armor mods. This results in scab ragers that are 100% inferior to their dreg variants - they are slowed down too much by the “armor” that increases damage taken by them. Total joke
Imo, for elite enemies to have any meaning besides a pebble stopping some cleave FS needs to heavily nerf most of the base flak(a little) and carapace(a lot, no base mod over 50%) mods then limit rending sources(maybe turn some of them into a little bit more balanced brittleness). After that goes through, cut down crusher packs to no more than 3(several can be spawned at once mixed with maulers and bulwarks anyway)
4) The skill trees are too powerful in their flexibility, this cant be mitigated by anything bar a total revamp(not gonna happen, gotta live with it)
5) Would be fine if they were a bit more tactical e.g. shooters entrenching more and firing more often, elites spreading out more to prevent giant blobs that get cleaved/aoed into oblivion, specials not bum rushing in conga lines and instead camping corners, hiding behind horde

[Hextechnician]

I think the biggest balance passes required right now are weapons.

For example, I love the idea of shotguns, but they currently feel kinda rubbish. However, if you nerfed the revolver, that wouldn’t make me pick shotguns any more than I am now.

I don’t feel like personally working out exactly how it should all be rebalanced numbers wise, not my job. I just know that is the biggest limiting factor on fun for me as far as balance goes.

[Nish]

Weak enemy spam is boring and easy. Make Shooters (a) Threat Again.

[Flawless]

@JanZamoysky

I’m not sure how accurate this is tbh, a lot of so called mael difficulty modifiers aren’t hard, they are just annoying: dog, mutant, burster waves, snipers are NOT difficult, just tedious.

Yes.
It feels like most maelstrom modifiers are relatively easy in comparison to histg.
I almost never play maelstron missions because of that.

But although the options are listed in an order that might infer that auric maelstrom is seen as the highest difficulty by OP, it is not specifically stated.
It is reasonable to have both options available and anyone looking at the results can make up their own mind, which of the two they find more difficult.
I guess it would be far too specific, tto have multiple different modifier combinations available for maelstrom votes.

Difficulty wise, maelstrom missions could do with a slight increase of enemy spawns.
Then again, maybe maelstroms are supposed to be the funky and fun gamemode, not the most difficult.

[Molonious]

I feel like “Play Time” is something that should also be measured here.

If the majority of the forum userbase is playing Auric Maelstrom after less than 100 hours of play (already 10x more than the average time investment to beat SM2), that’s a very different thing than if the average respondent has over 1000 hours of play.

[Mezmorki]

@CobaltNinja

Assuming you’ve seen this recent thread:

Tweaking the Difficulty Levels Discussion

Bearing in mind that havoc mode will come out, I’m curious what people feel is the need for adjusting difficulty levels in the standard game mode. My overwhelming sense of the game is this, and this is levied mostly at Auric Damnation play: When the team is good, and using mostly good builds and stronger weapon picks, the game feels like a cakewalk “most of the time.” Occasionally solid feeling runs will go sideways through a lapse in dealing with specials, a cascade of teammates getting disa…

Lots of discussion about difficulty.

[Ol_Jakal]

yeah, great a survey for a forum full of people that “play” but only in auric because they have to look cool even though i doubt half of these people have played in months and even then only with like five mods JUST to make the game easier for “quality of life”, i’m sure…

[Orome]

@CobaltNinja

OVERALL, how difficult does the game feel to you?

@CobaltNinja

How do you feel about player power?

Not really that simple that you can say “we’re too powerful/weak” or “difficulty is too easy/hard”

Some builds/talents/weapons are too powerful, some are just right, some are too weak and that ties with the difficulty.

All i can say is that the enemies are just right so the problem with difficulty is on the player’s side of things not the director/map/enemies.

But i cannot say that the difficulty is either too easy or too hard because if i pick a gun psyker with a shredder pistol and a heavy sword then the difficulty is too hard. If i pick a veteran with leftside helbore then the difficulty is just right. If i pick a evi crit zealot then the difficulty is too easy.

[MadMartigan]

It’s a strange one to answer tbh, because whilst I might say players are not strong enough - this would come with the caveat that enemies should deal more damage. Can’t have one without the other.

I’ve often preferred high damage that works both ways in games. Player can do lots of damage but so can the enemies, which allows for an intense level of concentration.

I have and will always detest bullet sponges in all games. It’s the laziest form of ‘balancing’ imo. This is what nerfing weapons risks making the game feel like.

No one wants to feel like their gun is literally a nerf gun. If an enemy can be downed easily but deals much more damage with their attacks then hey presto, a more refined form of balance that rewards skill to a greater extent.

Of course this is generally speaking, especially with such a deep and complex mechanics system, but generally speaking - this is how I’d prefer balancing to be explored.

[jackjackson]

You always keep yapping but never post hours played, penance score or any form of proof you yourself actually play

Curious

[gpkgpk]

@Flawless

@JanZamoysky

I’m not sure how accurate this is tbh, a lot of so called mael difficulty modifiers aren’t hard, they are just annoying: dog, mutant, burster waves, snipers are NOT difficult, just tedious.

Yes.
It feels like most maelstrom modifiers are relatively easy in comparison to histg.
I almost never play maelstron missions because of that.

^ when people talk about “I only do Maelstrom this and that”, they’re usually easier than HiSTG because HiSTG is not the baseline.

A poll that considers Mael as the ultimate diff is inaccurate from the start.
A lot of people stick to HiSTG because it’s more challenging.

[Index]

glad to be in the “real” category then =)

Darktide Ogryn Auric Maelstrom I II V E G Clandestium Gloriana

while my quality of life is turning the hud OFF to the point i get the visually essential infos when my mates are about to kiss the floor

@Flawless

in comparison to histg

might be a fluke on my end then but in most matches compared(with auric maelstrom) HISTG had the least number of specials/elites or overall horde density.

therefore i´m happy for any I II or I II V E G / C I VI that comes my way knowing it to be a cut above the usual

but yeah, i agree that overall mutants and dogs are a nuisance rather than any factor in “difficulty”

@gpkgpk

A lot of people stick to HiSTG because it’s more challenging

as soon as the event ends i gonna double check(having some HISTG mutated horrors as well though already), for channel´s sake i tried to create entertaining content doing auric maelstroms as the “be all/end all” for i thought to capture the broadest audience.

so my comparison number HISTG vs auric maelstrom is heavy on the later side.
still, few HISTG i remember were as wild as some I II V E G for example.

[morfin]

Its safe to assume everything that doesn’t include at least “monstrous, waves of specialists” is high intensity trying to disguise itself as a maelstrom

[JanZamoysky]

@gpkgpk

^ when people talk about “I only do Maelstrom this and that”, they’re usually easier than HiSTG because HiSTG is not the baseline.

A poll that considers Mael as the ultimate diff is inaccurate from the start.
A lot of people stick to HiSTG because it’s more challenging.

Yeah its a bit sad state of affairs with mael games, you cannot select your own modifiers and what we get is often meh.

[CobaltNinja]

@MadMartigan

I have and will always detest bullet sponges in all games. It’s the laziest form of ‘balancing’ imo. This is what nerfing weapons risks making the game feel like.

No one wants to feel like their gun is literally a nerf gun. If an enemy can be downed easily but deals much more damage with their attacks then hey presto, a more refined form of balance that rewards skill to a greater extent.

I actually think a lot of weapons are great for the most part, and hit hard enough to feel fun while not being overtuned. There are just a couple of overperformers and underperformers that would need tuning, such as Dueling Swords or IAGs. Heavy Swords especially feel like a limp noodle compared to everything else.

Revolver is a boring weapon but I can’t think of a way to nerf or change it, so it’s probably fine.

I agree on the front of “enemies should deal more damage”. Getting hit in VT2 by anything was nuclear - here it just tickles. You can take an absurd amount of chip before going down.

[Gigs]

@MadMartigan

whilst I might say players are not strong enough - this would come with the caveat that enemies should deal more damage. Can’t have one without the other.

I’ve often preferred high damage that works both ways in games.

Being nearly oneshotted is no fun. Enemy density and ramping up their AI (like adding the ability for enemies to strafe or fire faster) has always been a much more engaging than just flooding the screen with Crushers, but simply flooding the screen with Crushers is much better than making everything a bullet sponge.

The game is inconsistent at best. Fought 5 monstrosities in one map the other day and they weren’t much of a challenge. The game just kept feeding them to us one after another. It didn’t change anything up, it didn’t compensate by throwing two, it didn’t look at what was already spawned, it just paraded them into the wood chipper between waves. The AI director isn’t working.

I think the lowest 3 difficulties need a boost to train people for the higher difficulties. The enemy density on damnation is a flood even when compared to heresy.

Now that we can all pick all the perks and blessings we want on perfect weapons, build variety has increased, but the ability to thin out enemies has also increased significantly for weapon heavy classes. Psyker still needs a blitz rework, and there’s a reason so few people play Ogryn.

[BFCInsomnia]

Honestly, I could accept if the current balance was to never be touched again. At this point, I’d only suggest to make some of the weaker things get closer to what’s currently meta and maybe give meta things slight slaps on their wrists. An example for me would be the vets shout versus the other abilities. Shout should be a bit weaker, exe stance should give toughness on activation and/or reload the weapon on it’s first activation and infiltrate should keep you hidden while you get headshots (with a limit of either time or amount of kills) and increase damage enough to do be compareable to shroudfield.
The point is to make the best option just slightly more balanced and make the other things more directly compete with it.

@CobaltNinja

How do you feel about enemy power?

This one can’t really be answered in that way. Most enemies are fine and kill you quickly enough but there are a few outliers that do stuff which can only be described as bullsh!t.
I’d much rather see some enemies get properly fixed with some of the outrageous bullsh!t they can pull. A Trapper being silent and being able to shoot through a bulwark or monster f.e.
Flamer tanks being able to damage you through golden toughness, etc.
In general, most enemies are silent and can sneak up on you without footstep sounds at all, it’s crazy.

[Index]

@Gigs

to train people for the higher difficulties

the problem here i think doesnt lie with the numbers of enemies but peoples reluctance to train certain patterns like evading dogs, nets or getting a mind-map of enemy priority like trapper>dog>flamer>bomber>gunner>horde trash etc.

you see people fail on malice to a sole trapper, each… one after the other…
i´m sure you´ve seen a neat railing from which were hanging 4 ripe rejects…

you get the idea

sometimes there´s just a gap people can´t or wont bridge for one reason or the other.

maybe as a developer you should accept that not everyone is going through all the difficulties as a “progress” and willingly or unwillingly stagnates at some point, but still make the bar flexibly higher for those that do.

playing auric maelstrom or HISTG no matter if tired or as a warmup i see my path up until here as a natural progress i´d like to continue.

last couple weeks i broke my latest plateau that was building up karsolas like speed with my branx and combine the best of two worlds.

now i can traverse as easily with my oneshot machine as i did with the lighter version 2-3 months ago.

practise and dedication, still not there with the auric maelstrom solo-crowd but i want to challenge myself in every way possible the game provides.

as for the AI ramp up, i totally agree, though i got my doubts the games engine will allow for much given the current trapper shoots through a phalanx of bulwarks “collision”

i´d love for groups of gunners to retreat, try a different path, flank or call other units over for example but seeing how ai stagnated since half life i wonder if it´s an engine/hardware thing.

game needs to sell on lower end hardware too after all.

but maybe add another pattern to the trapper as to not shoot a horizontal projectile but lop it at you at an arc and catching on from above.
that way you could give the trapper a new movement set as well.

i´m no game designer but i think you get it