Yo this is a bit off topic, but this just occurred to me while reading through this thread. Did Pseudo random crits indirectly nerf non Fervency builds? I seem to remember @Sleezy or someone saying there’s an effective softcap of about 40% crit chance now. Since WHC can get up to 50% with non Fervency Ult and Wild Fervour, does this push Fervency (further?) ahead of the other LVL 30 options?
I will mention something relatively silly (so take it with about a table spoon of salt)…
I miss the team-THP on taggable kill. Not saying it’s something the game requires (if anything, we have a lot of THP-generators already), I just miss it, because it was an actually interesting and unique choice when compared to Crit% and AS.
I think this should help you.
Eh … I guess it depends what we set the “balanced” baseline to be. If we talk in terms of power like I don’t know RV/Unchained then sure his kit offers tremendous amounts of utility/survivability and damage for crap free and is arguably way too powerful. Then again the same could be said about half the careers in the game.
Guess what I’m trying to say is I don’t see it as much of an outlier as some, sure it has its gimmicks and stupid moments and those mainly stem from literally 1 shotting with the passive.
The tag also lasts for 15s too, which makes the extra dps out live the other ults for quite some time. I think we just disagree here. I feel that these changes would be enough without being too much.
- I Shall Judge You All - Best for organised team dps burst/recovery burst
- Fervency best individual dps but least team dps and safety
- Highest sustained dps (10% less cooldown with changes though) and good safety.
I’ve focused on WHC in this thread, but there are other careers deserving of nerfs. In my opinion, balanced is Cata not being just a “Oh I have to push sometimes now” difficulty. Onslaught and Deathwish have to go to extreme (sometimes even fps tanking) lengths to make the game difficulty high enough for meta teams.
Or a simultaneous triple monster in the pit of Convocation, just at the 2nd grim. While also dealing with normal C3 Onslaught things. Oh, and the ground halves your movement.
Yeah I get its WHC focused thread but honestly something lacking lately is the baseline. Like at this point the game is so dam powercrept I really cant say with confidence what it should be. So in terms of say WHC vs other meta careers I really don’t see the issue outside of the passive but if the game were generally notched down 2 stages or we were talking about onslaught/deathwish then yeah it might actually be bit different.
But yeah that’s just something I wanted to clear out.
Good point, it’s hard to tell what should be baseline. For me it’s difficult enough if elites actually get at least one swing in before being deleted, if mixed hordes + a boss aren’t the only threat, and if patrols can’t be soloed by virtually any career with a pot (UC with a STR pot is no joke, and RV can of course double bomb a non-Chaos pat).
I just don’t see how i shall judge you all would be called burst, when fervency is pretty much a burst.
Idk i just cannot see a scenario where i shall judge you all would be better then fervency or unending. I understand the positives about the talent and i think its a fine talent, even currently. but i just cannot seem to see a practical use of it that fervency or unending cannot do.
If you have any situations where it would be better to use it, i would love to know them as i probably missed them. Also i’m not including modded difficulties or certain weaves, or certain deeds.
When you have decent team mates, especially if they have higher dps than you do (GK, Slayer, Shade etc. are all competitive with WHC but can be limited by a lack of safety, which I Shall Judge You All could provide alongside a strong dose of dps). Unending Hunt helps allies too but the burst is significantly less. This is especially relevant for Chaos patrols.
Additionally with Deathknell + Assassin and the buffed headshot passive the Rapier would one shot all chaff on light headshot for 15s in a large area. So would the 1h Axe and the axe attacks on the A&F. This gives the talent higher horde dps and works without Killing Shot, enabling more reliable (dependent on aim of course) dps outside of the ult.
This is all assuming fervency will have no more stagger, and removing stagger of fervency will almost certain never happen and if it happens it will be never be picked, so in a case where fervency doesn’t have stagger i can see a use for i shall judge you all, i maybe should of clarified that a bit better.
Yea i’m not a fan of removing killing shot as a passive, i could maybe see i shall judge you all be used if it was a talent, but i don’t think it’s realistic that whc will have his passive removed.
I was mostly looking purely at the ult row and it’s more realistic that ults get changed, and in that case i don’t see any competition between fervency and i shall judge you. Yes it affects all teammates, yes it affects more enemies, but how much value will it actually have? How much more value will it bring over fervency? Is having more dps against trash even needed? Also when ulting with fervency you expect it, but a team might not expect it and be Busy sniping that special or kiting, while the dmg buff is active, on the other hand you might ult with fervency and get grabbed, effectively losing all ur crits and dmg.
Also while it might be true, i would find it hard to justify an ult talent for a niche situation, which will never happen in good groups.
Also i think fatshark gives away to freely the ‘cdr ult’ talent, unless it has other types of dmg mitigation (like merc dmg reduction on ult), cdr that keeps all of the bonusses will always be top picks, especially on stagger + support ultimates (like whc/merc). Even on zealot, the ult that gives back his ult cd on hitting enemies is best. Very hard to balance such things and leave room for real choices. Removing a bonuss from cdr ult talents on the other hand, will just result in nobody using them (looking at merc cdr but no temp)
Edit: forgive me, i was talking about talents when looking at them in a seperate way, not with the full rework in mind, you were probably having the entire rework in mind. Mybad.
You dont need to completly take him apart.
Change Fervency to something else that can compete with Unending Hunt and we are done. Unending Hunt is a top Talent, while Fervency is just silly.
A single FK charge can also ruin Fervency’s effect. Really depends on the team. It’s a big part of why Unending Hunt is so good - so many more chances.
I agree that without the rest of the changes I Shall Judge You All wouldn’t be competitive.
Unfortunately (in my opinion that is) I don’t think any of my suggestions will go through. While I would be quite chuffed if they did, I mainly just wanted to have a discussion post to help flesh out my own ideas a bit more while also seeing what the current opinion on WHC was. This has been a good discussion I think. I know more about what is and isn’t meta for example (I always assumed Heretic Sighted was meta but it would seem I was wrong).
And no need to apologise. I can see how even with the full rework it can still be questionable, and it gets pretty confusing to read my posts (I’m too verbose and get confused by them myself).
Edit: I also get what you’re saying about the overlap between Fervency and Judge. They are both different flavours of burst dps. For comparison, Huntsmen has a burst ult (10s duration) and overall dps ult (cooldown reduction) and an ult that gives safety/consistency (stay invis while shooting for the full duration of the ult).
Perhaps I Shall Judge You All could instead have an effect that dazes enemies for 6 seconds to provide an alternative function (would be absolutely visually ridiculous for Saltzpyre to daze a horde for this long by shouting but it would have some pretty decent practical applications).
That works too. Really the main purpose of a rebalance like I suggested would be to make WHC require more skill, but if we need to just make WHC balanced then it’s a much less intrusive process on the current form of the career.
I already like this idea more, this is unique. I just want real choices between talents, not one general talent and 1or2 very niche ones. Differen’t playstyles while also making sure one doesn’t become a top pick.
Also just to remove confusion for readers, i am not saying i shall judge you all needs to be reworked, they can rework either on of the three. I just think fervency and unending are already well accepted by most players, so why change 2 when you can change 1. (Unless it leads to powercreep). In a perfect world i would rather see unending changed, keep i shall judge you and rework the other 2.
In huntsman’s case they are overlap pretty heavily and there is clearly one winner for me in those 3. For me it’s blend in. Ults that lower ultimate cooldown are just very good, i can see concealed strikes be used for,like you said, more safety and maybe to not be pressured so much. But head down and hidden, idk, maybe in niche situations where you have to do alot of damage in a specific window, but overall blend in just beats this imo. (Maybe some ranged options make better use of head down and hidden, but i’m not sure).
I was thinking something like a series of accusations that daze enemies, where WHC essentially berates the enemies for their crimes even more so than with the usual ult. Would be fitting for a WHC.
It probably wasn’t the best example, however Head Down and Hidden is mainly for patrols and bosses. I suppose FK and GK have some decent and distinct ult options. It’s a problem a few careers seem to have right now. (like how for Handmaiden both Bladedancer and Power from Pain are essentially both dps (and why does Handmaiden get power from pain? Goes against the career’s theme))
One needs only play metal weaves to know what life without Killing Shot looks like
As someone who despises riposte, I guess i can see it as an inoffensive passive since it gets no use anyway. The game’s theme is stagger and a functional party is all about having a frontline knock enemies around so the dps can clean up.
But i don’t get why take away the crit. That’s kind of his thing. I know the forums hate swift slaying, but I don’t think crit builds should be removed from the game just because.
It’s awful, but I think that’s because of WHC’s damage not actually being all that good for the costs it comes at outside of Killing Shot (which is basically a voided passive on metal Weaves). I didn’t mention this in the main post, but increasing the headshot modifer like Sleezy suggested in another for the Rapier’s partial and full charge heavies would be good (combine that with the buffed headshot passive and Deathknell and we have 100% increased headshot damage bonus and buffed Rapier heavies, though I would also decrease the bodyshot crit damage of the Rapier).
Overall I think my suggestions would lessen WHC needless effectiveness against mansized enemies and enhance it against Chaos Warriors/Wargors and monsters, making them less of a one trick pony.
Essentially one of the goals of my suggested rework is for WHC to deal good dps compared to other high dps careers without relying on crits innately. Removing the crit chance passive, swapping Killing Shot and Riposte while buffing the headshot passive by 25% allows WHC to have good dps and all the other benefits a WHC gets but at the cost of precision, mechanical skill and not luck.
That’s true, but Riposte is still useful in contexts where that goes wrong. It’s a reactionary talent by default, though in a low stagger team it can be used to good effect. Increasing the stagger resistance of enemies goes a long way into making Riposte better. Deathwish is a good example of this (still of course inferior to current Flense, and I wouldn’t go as far as Deathwish does for normal Cata).
I also think that the game is much more interesting when enemies get to do things for at least a few moments before being consumed as thp medpacks.
With Riposte a WHC benefits a lot more from reading animations and is rewarded heavily for truly understanding the combat mechanics and their weapon. For example - with Riposte and the Rapier, it’s higher dps to block an attack from a horde enemy and then light attack instead of doing a push attack. This is because the other horde enemies will still be attacking as you didn’t push, enabling you to chain Ripostes (this is of course hard to pull off and depends on enemy density and timing, and is not as useful on official Cata as it is on modded due to the lower hp pools for enemies). It’s dangerous method but it should be, as that’s is one of the many parts of what makes Riposte require skill (I should really write a Riposte guide because there’s a lot of things that can be done with it).
Riposte is technically more crit though not for free. It’s only 5% removed. With Wild Fervour and Unending Hunt you would still easily have high crit rates frequently.
Oh and I love Swift Slaying (though a more skillful trigger would be good, even something simple like headshots). If anything I want more attack speed in the game, but also faster elites.
Edit: I’ve thought of Riposte itself granting attack speed for just the single riposte attack. This would make landing Ripostes easier (which could be bad) but also enable more effective use of Riposte (like in the way I mentioned using it against hordes earlier) and extends the applications of Riposte to more situations and contexts (I’ve added this to the main post).
You’re not going to be able to convince me to like riposte that easily I’m just saying if it’s a passive it’s not an insulting one, because I’d never sacrifice a whole talent row for a talent a pug or pre-made would ever allow me to use or a gameplay style I just naturally wouldn’t risk for a reward I don’t value when I can be proactive and get the same result in less time.
Fwiw, I’m not actually against most of these changes. More headshot damage fits Salt since his entire arsenal and height is great for hitting heads. Also this rework doesn’t 100% change the character’s personality or theme either, which is rare for these kinds of threads
As many said befor me i think it’s not worth put resources and effort in changhing WHC it’s fine as he is.
It’s up to fatshark to make their priorities, its not because other careers need more pressing changes, that others don’t need any. Also even if a career is perfect, there can always be discussions about potential things that could improve it even more, nothing is ever perfect.