Why is the Flamer like it is?

[Jonboy]

@Eisenfaust

Yes that’s the general problem with nerf requests - they most of the time come from people who didn’t use the weapon before.

Well… I have to admit, I joined the forums specifically because I thought the flamer needed adjusting, and I was maining Zealot with it at the time having just broken in to Tier 5 maps. It was too good an all-rounder, at least in my opinion, and it trivialized a lot of the game - as it was then. My memory was huge hordes, few elites, aka plenty of cannon fodder. Stand in a corner and just burn everything: your team mates can’t see anything, so they just have to wait

Would that same weapon (as it was) do that now? Maybe not to the same extent. Especially if people are using different special abilities from CtW. And we’ve a higher mix of armour in the groups now. It’d be interesting to see old flamer in current game.

Ironically around the time of those flamer changes peeps in game were recommending the shredder auto-pistol. That just became the next meta - weapon didn’t it? And saw a similar fate…

(*edits for typos)

[alsozara]

@Eisenfaust

Disagree - not every weapon needs to lean towards insta swap / high mobility. We do have enough such options. I prefer that unhandy options remain unhandy but that the effort put into using them is made worthwhile as the more different weapons are the more interesting it is to use different options.

I agree completely with that approach but I’m not sure the flamer is the right target for it. Completely makes sense as an approach for something like bolter, but I think it’s a pretty impossible balancing act with heavily AoE weapons. I don’t really know where you find the right balance point for flamer without adjusting mobility. You could definitely tune up its numbers a little bit without much risk to game balance considering the levels of general power creep that have happened since it was nerfed, but I don’t think that would make it more compelling or enjoyable for a lot of people.

Personally I’d like to see it stay as primarily a trash clear secondary but get buffs to mobility to make it feel better in that niche. I admit the bigger problem there is that there aren’t many melee weapons left for Zealot that genuinely struggle with horde clear enough to warrant dedicating a ranged slot to it. It’s pretty much just T Hammer now and even then you’d feel a bit silly when paired with high horde clear team mates.

That’s kinda my biggest problem with it now I guess. Buff it to kill elites well and it’s probably gonna be too gross for how well it scales with density. Double down on making it a good horde clear secondary and you’re left asking when you really need that

Sorry that kinda devolved into a tangential ramble. What the hell to do with flamer in the current state of weapon balance kinda does my head in. I think I can say least say with some certainty being able to stagger elites would be going way too far with it. Better DPS is fine as long as you remain threatened while dishing it out.

[yamiyamiyami]

The fun aspect of flamer was to make decision based on your surroundings or horde spawns and then preemptively pull it out and brace. You would make an active decision and then be rewarded lavishly for it. While greater mobility is nice, I would have preferred the flamer to remain as it should be, which is a slow and clumsy but devastating weapon of mass destruction.

This is how I felt about purgatus back then, even though it was an amazing weapon it used to be more of a “soft” horde clear with good, stable damage but nothing too insane. Therefore, whenever a big mixed horde showed up I’d pull out flamer and burn through it all extremely quickly at the cost of my ammunition. I had to make a decision on whether or not spending ammo in that exact moment is worth enough to risk running low later. That was the fun aspect of flamer for me.

[weeping.moon]

@Eisenfaust

Disagree - not every weapon needs to lean towards insta swap / high mobility.

@Eisenfaust

It‘s actually a quite common phenomenon: a weapon is unwieldy but powerful (like flamer, bolter and powersword). First people some complain about that power completely ignoring the opportunity cost this power has as the weapon is unwieldy. When FS gives in and nerfs the hell out of these weapons then come complains that now that the weapon isn’t powerful anymore the unwieldyness has to be reduced. This process of making all weapons more alike is destroying variety in equipment that makes the game interesting.

Because game balance was changed overall, much later after flamer was nerfed. How is that hard to understand? Ammount of enemies was increased significantly.

You do understand that flamer is the only 2 dodge limit weapon wasnt’t buffed after game balance and pacing was shifted? Typical flamer situation is that you need to dodge dance while reloading, spraying or swaping.

And considering ammount of enemies was increased 2 dodges isn’t enough so you are forced to swap to melee, and swaping with flamer takes time. Homogeneous weapons is the result of how they changed spawns.

@Eisenfaust

Your opinion. Mine is that it was fine as it‘s downsides balanced it’s power quite well. Saying it wasn’t is to be delusional and biased.

My opinion supported by facts:

• game balance and meta was shifted towards mobility
• you can’t have a weapon that doesn’t ask to aim, have infinite cleave, stagger and being strong vs all types of armor

Your opinion is all about emotional biased, lacks simple understanging and observation.

[weeping.moon]

@yamiyamiyami

The fun aspect of flamer was to make decision based on your surroundings or horde spawns and then preemptively pull it out and brace. You would make an active decision and then be rewarded lavishly for it. While greater mobility is nice, I would have preferred the flamer to remain as it should be, which is a slow and clumsy but devastating weapon of mass destruction.

But it wasn’t like that, back in the days you could play 99% of the run with flamer. It was so devastating that there was no treat. Every run zealots were just sacking all ammo and spraying all along, melting mixed hordes in a few seconds.

That’s the problem when your damage is so high it turns off any deffensive mechanics and force players to consume all ammo not using melee. You just can’t have BFG of mass destruction when ammo is in every corner. Considering flamer shooting mechanics doesn’t take any effort or skill, the only way to balance it -via handling. In the current meta 2 dodges and slow swap speed keep flamer in mediocre tier.

[alsozara]

@weeping.moon

In the current meta 2 dodges and slow swap speed keep flamer in mediocre tier.

I don’t think you necessarily need to fix both. Better sprint speed and dodges would mean you don’t need to swap as much in the first place. I think you could just address mobility, leave swap speed alone, then see how it feels from there. My next step would probably be to either increase damage on pure horde enemies or increase total ammo, basically ammo economy improvement of some kind but honestly good mobility might be enough for it to be a fun secondary to low mobility melee weapons. I don’t think it has to be meta it just has to feel good to use and be effective enough.

[Eisenfaust]

@weeping.moon

Typical flamer situation is that you need to dodge dance while reloading, spraying or swaping.

OR one accepts that limited ammo and mobility as well as slow swap and reload are part of the design and plays accordingly. I used the flamer not as an emergency or gunslinger weapon but as a precursor to a melee assault. Thus I only had to reload in combat pauses and all was fine. This of course only is sensible when that what you can do with one tank is worth the effort.

@weeping.moon

My opinion supported by facts

No

@weeping.moon

game balance and meta was shifted towards mobility

If so it only shows the existent weaknesses of the flamer were relevant and the hard nerf unwarranted.

@weeping.moon

you can’t have a weapon that doesn’t ask to aim, have infinite cleave, stagger and being strong vs all types of armor

What you state as fact is just another opinion. The flamer had weaknesses in mobility, handling and range to counterweight it‘s power.

@weeping.moon

Your opinion is all about emotion

In a non e-sport video game emotion is all that matters. No price money involved it comes all down to is fun to play or not.
Flamer used to be used a lot - so lots of players had fun using it. Now flamer is only very rarely used - next to noone has fun using it. If a weapon in a video game isn’t fun to use it’s bad. It is actually just that simple.

What is fun is of course debatable and again a matter of opinion. For one it might be challenge and competing with randoms for numbers on a modded score board. For others - like me - it’s mainly immersion. Right now the flamer is nowhere near the promethium throwing tool of death it should be lorewise and thus not fun for me.

@alsozara

I don’t really know where you find the right balance point for flamer without adjusting mobility.

I know what you mean - but as you say yourself later an only poxwalker killing weapon in the ranged slot is absolutely useless. Maybe decouple it from ammo in general and limit it’s use in another way so that it is a powerful killing machine but one can’t spam it?

[weeping.moon]

@alsozara

I don’t think you necessarily need to fix both.

Neither i am, i mean just some aspect of flamer’s defensive ability

@Eisenfaust

OR one accepts that limited ammo and mobility as well as slow swap and reload are part of the design and plays accordingly.

It is, but they changed the game balance, so it doesn’t work greatly anymore.

@Eisenfaust

No

Nice arguments. Will you argue that spawns are not bigger than it was or what?

@Eisenfaust

Flamer used to be used a lot - so lots of players had fun using it.

And lots of players wasn’t cause trivialising game isn’t fun. Noone was asking to nerf mg12 cause it was fair balanced, noone was asking to nerf chainsword, cause it was trash.

@Eisenfaust

The flamer had weaknesses in mobility, handling and range to counterweight it‘s power.

What do you mean, this is exactly what i said. The problem is you can’t increase flamer damage, cause in DT you have a universal ammo type both for weapons like laser pistol, shredder and for flamer and plasma.

Thats why limitted ammo doesn’t work aswell as a con cause you still can refill it. If you will rise raw damage you will have “zealots stealing all ammo” threads. Players just compete for ammo, and the guy with the strongest gun will just spam it and steal all ammo. It’s how it was with flamer and bolter. So the only option to buff flamer in the current game state is to improve it’s handling/mobility or redesign

[alsozara]

@Eisenfaust

an only poxwalker killing weapon in the ranged slot is absolutely useless

As much as I think its horde clear is good enough these days, I could still see a use for it paired with T Hammer IF flamer had good mobility as another synergy for that pairing. Note again I agree the swap speed is good flavour and should stay.

I do agree that’s too small of a niche though. I dunno maybe it does need mechanics changes. Leaving behind puddles ala sticky flames in DRG could be an approach (which OP also suggested). The primary fuel spray could retain its current damage (so good on hordes, not really on elites) while the puddles are a bit more potent against elites, and last a decent while, encouraging you to lay them out then swap to melee and actively engage the elites while you try to keep them in the puddles. A little like Cory staff in VT2 but obviously with more sensible tuning for the damage of the puddles. That could be engaging and potent without turning into just a hold m1 to win weapon.

[Manacraft]

The flamer was overtuned on release. It also struggles in the current meta. Two things can be true at once.

First of all, to argue that the flamer was fine on release is just nonsense. The flamer used to be the one-stop shop for screen clearing. It singlehandedly trivialized what should be the most difficult moments in the game, even on damnation. Part of this was admittedly related to its interaction with chastise the wicked. Nevertheless, at the time the flamer nerfs were implemented, they were completely justified. And yes, for a while thereafter, the flamer was mostly fine.

Fast forward to post-patch 15, and we’re living in a different world where the classes have all been rebalanced (complete with new skill trees), and so have the enemies. Meanwhile the flamer is still basically the same. As far as I can tell, the reasons why the flamer is currently an underwhelming pick are as follows:

1: Hordes are smaller these days, and they tend to spawn in waves rather than all at once. Meanwhile the elites that the post-nerf flamer now struggles against are spawning in higher numbers.

2: Zealots have immolation grenades, which the flamer must now compete with.

3: As part of the class rebalance, melee weapons generally became stronger vs hordes. There aren’t many melee weapons left that are actually weak enough against hordes to justify picking the flamer as a companion.

And that’s where we are. As far as what to do with it now, I think there are basically two ways you could go with the flamer. One is to recognize that if the flamer is to retain its current form, it needs to do what it does faster. The slow equip time needs to go, and maybe an ammo increase is also required. In a world where the flamer doesn’t get the big screen clears anymore, it can’t be as slow and clunky as it currently is. Basically make flamer flexible enough to be used more often since it now has comparatively less of an impact.

The second option is a complete redesign. Fatshark has shown that they are willing to do this before, and TBH I’m kind of hoping they’ll do one here. In that case we could hopefully get a flamer that actually takes mass into account, which would make it a hell of a lot easier to balance in the first place. If that happens, I could see the flamer becoming more effective vs armored enemies again.

[weeping.moon]

@alsozara

As much as I think its horde clear is good enough these

@Eisenfaust

an only poxwalker killing weapon in the ranged slot is absolutely useless

Add more infested enemies (infested elites) - nurglings, plaguebeares, make flamer best anti infested.

[NewNoise10]

I discarded the flamer due to its cumbersome handling and slow response. It lacks the ability to fire from the hip and suffers from an inadequate ammo capacity, leaving you stranded in combat. Moreover, it proves ineffective against Crushers not to mention gunners at mid to long range.

[Eisenfaust]

@weeping.moon

Thats why limitted ammo doesn’t work aswell as a con cause you still can refill it.

I‘m with you on this - limited ammo is more a strain on the team than the single user. That is why I suggested decoupling the flamer from the ammo pool and limit it‘s in other ways.

@weeping.moon

Nice arguments. Will you argue that spawns are not bigger than it was or what?

No

Seriously though I elaborated my stance later in the post

@weeping.moon

And lots of players wasn’t cause trivialising game isn’t fun.

Maybe - so some did have fun some did not. Now next to noone is having fun. I don’t see the progress. I don’t say there should have been no nerfs at all - I say the way they nerfed it killed the fun in that weapon for most players. A more subtle approach might have been better.

@weeping.moon

It is, but they changed the game balance, so it doesn’t work greatly anymore.

Because the effect isn’t worth the effort anymore.

@alsozara

Leaving behind puddles ala sticky flames in DRG could be an approach (which OP also suggested).

Creating fire areas like with the zealot fire grenade? Great idea - that would make the flamer definitely more useful AND interesting to use.

@weeping.moon

Add more infested enemies (infested elites) - nurglings, plaguebeares, make flamer best anti infested.

Also good idea - new enemies are always good and using them to add use to niche weapons is definitely valid.

[dragomusic]

@Eisenfaust

some did have fun some did not. Now next to noone is having fun. I don’t see the progress. I don’t say there should have been no nerfs at all

@Eisenfaust

Mine is that it was fine as it‘s downsides balanced it’s power quite well. Saying it wasn’t is to be delusional and biased.

@Eisenfaust

OR one accepts that limited ammo and mobility as well as slow swap and reload are part of the design and plays accordingly. I used the flamer not as an emergency or gunslinger weapon but as a precursor to a melee assault. Thus I only had to reload in combat pauses and all was fine

You really seem to be saying that you thought the flamer didn’t need any nerfs at all.

@Eisenfaust

I say the way they nerfed it killed the fun in that weapon for most players. A more subtle approach might have been better.

The patented Fatshark approach.

[Molonious]

@Khorne_Dawg

I would like to propose adding Flamers that perform like military ones to Darktide. Hel, my friends back in high school used to call me Firefly because- I have said too much.

@BizarreSalp

No, I want a flamethrower that is an actual flamethrower. XD

I suspect real flamethrowers would be much less fun. A complicated piece of scuba equipment with few seconds of total shooting time and only a handful of igniting charges (meaning you actually consume two different ammunition types effectively) that shoots a relatively narrow hose of flame and primarily kills through massive carbon monoxide poisoning and asphyxiation in enclosed spaces probably isn’t as much fun as a propane-torch clone that just blasts a cloud of flame in huge cone ahead of you.

[Warrak]

Ngl the flamer did get a pretty hard dunk on by FS, however it is still by all means a fantastic weapon when in use.

I will say though without a shadow of a doubt that the old flamer was more fun to use regardless if you had CtW effects in use.

[BizarreSalp]

I see that a lot of discourse on the Flamer has popped up, but I really just hope that the weapon gets an entire REDESIGN. I have never seen in a mainstream video game a flamethrower actually behave like a flamethrower, and I think it would be so unique and interesting in Darktide (I did see a great flamethrower in a mod for Unreal Tournament 2004, years ago - it was amazing fun!).

Make it shoot a projectile that is affected by gravity, can splash off geomtery, and can create friendly puddles of fire damage. They don’t have to be big or super powerful, but this would be unique and enjoyable! The flame staff can remain the same, so we can have the best of both worlds.

Or maybe what I’m suggesting can be another model of Flamer, w/e.

[Eisenfaust]

@dragomusic

You really seem to be saying that you thought the flamer didn’t need any nerfs at all.

I thought that the flamer wasn’t the problem people made out to be. Slight nerfs may have been warranted but not the hammer it received. Maybe they could have started by deleting it‘s interaction with CtW (maybe even for all ranged options?) and see if that already solved the problem.

I‘m generally against nerfs in DT as long as item acquisition is done by gambling. But if something is overused I see that nerfs may be warranted. Although overuse may also have different reasons. As DT is a 40k game I expect in a perfectly balanced state I‘d still expect to see relatively more iconic 40k weapons instead of the more generic ones. And for a zealous warrior of the imperial cult what is more iconic then a flamer to purge heretic filth in the name of the god-emperor of mankind? Except maybe obliterating them by the holy fire of a sacred boltgun.
But if the nerf results in the weapon rarely be seen anymore it was obviously overdone. Even more so if we are talking about iconic 40k weaponry.

Over all I personally think in general weapon balance is in a quite good place now. So FS generally does a good job in balancing.

A good example from my point of view are force swords. They were overused received a slight nerf in mobility and now are still widely used but not universal anymore.

But flamer, boltgun and powersword by now are rarely used despite being iconic 40k weapons - that is a shame because visually and soundwise they very well designed. All three were overnerfed and that’s a pity.

This is btw my perception and not based on statistics and thus I might be wrong about over- and underuse.

[hgjw]

It was arguably over nerfed for a metagame that no longer exists and never was buffed up for the new one that exists nowadays.
Flamer definitely deserves a buff, but what sort of buff I’m not sure. I do like the concept of an immobile weapon that you have to commit to make work, but it simply does not work in a metagame we have right now with million elites/specials/shooters constantly harassing you. You also simply cannot make it melt armour again due to the infinite cleave factor.
Its honestly currently a balancing nightmare in my eyes and could do with some sort of rework.

[dragomusic]

@Eisenfaust

Maybe they could have started by deleting it‘s interaction with CtW (maybe even for all ranged options?)

Hate that CtW or FotF interacts with ranged weapons, it should’ve been nuked a long time ago. I believe it is because FS is incapable of doing it that it hasn’t happened already.

As iconic as they are I don’t like either the Purg or the Flamer because during an ambush or horde 3 people stand around doing nothing while 1 person holds down left click. Maybe you shoot a specialist that shows up. Not a fun weapon in a team context imo.

@Eisenfaust

powersword by now are rarely used despite being iconic 40k weapons - that is a shame because visually and soundwise they very well designed. All three were overnerfed and that’s a pity.

Mk 6 Powersword is probably one of if not the best melee weapons in the game right now. I don’t think its used a lot because its an incredibly boring weapon to use.