I’m not gonna go to your profile and respond to things you’ve written in other threads. I will respond to what you write in this thread.
No response needed, just saying you should look for yourself before you judge incorrectly, but if you’re not up for that then that already says everything.
I got nothin’ else here…
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You would be adult saying “yeah, Benny, but everything with friends is fun. I don’t think throwing stones into river is good fun”.
My point being: even worst games can be fun with friends. Take out friends, what you are left with: poop-quality game.
That’s the problem of many failed co-op games. People are on copium as long as they have people to play with. Hell, even Battlefail 2042, being total big pile of dog shite was fun with my friends for some time (still, I heavy criticized this game, as it was 3/10 at best, dog shait).
So that doesn’t mean that game is fun, just that I like to spend time with my friends and they make my time fun, derping together.
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I tend to base my judments on prior experiences. I did love VT1 and I jumped on VT2 right away (in fact I preordered it), especially because there was a good offer at the time.
Now, I’ve been really critical of them in the time between Winds of Magic and Grail Knight (included), because.
As of now, while there’s long standing issues that’ll determine my future judgment of them (inventory space fix, beastmen still roaming in wrong maps, above all) I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt and edging towards approval. This is because they have shown us a lot of love in the form of lore posts and they changed the businness model for the better (also CW and new maps).
I know how much of a mess the game has been for a very long time, and I don’t like how grindy they are making them, so I didn’t buy DT right away. I’ll eventually get to it, but I expect to play it in a much more casual fashion.
TL:DR: You reap what you sow, but not everything is bad.
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The, “if you hate it, leave.” argument is one of the dumbest logical fallacies I’ve ever heard to defend defending a developer.
If people hated the game, most would leave it and never come back. If the game was so-so, people will get bored and never come back. People continue to criticise, report bugs, issues, offer insights, and suggestions, and still talk about the game because they love, loved or want to love bits of the game, or see potential with the game. With that one argument you are trying to paint everyone that is critical or has any negative perceptions with a game under the same dismissive brush.
Sure there is some vitriol and a lot of hyperbole, but overall the general tone is “I have fun with the game… BUT.” And it’s that “but” that can truly drag down the enjoyment, fun and joy this game can and could give us.
It’s not all bad. It’s not all good either. And there are all those channels where people are providing feedback on that “but”. Glossing over the issues with “But I’m having fun!” doesn’t help anyone, we’re still around trying to help have it become a better game.
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Saying that the overall tone is “I like this game, but…” is simply incorrect. Most of the posts on Reddit and this forum are extremely negitive, and the discussions within are equally so.
Implying that things ‘aren’t so bad’ normalizes an absolutely abhorrent behavior, and excuses people for acting that way.
On one hand, most people don’t understand the toll that such overwhelming negatively can take on a person. Some companies literally tell devs to avoid social media for their game. And on the other, some people simply don’t care about others, and will literally make death threats to devs because a piece of armor isn’t being added (as happened in the Destiny 2 community recently.)
I’m ‘Defending’ Fatshark because they’re people too, and the worsening tone of the community demoralizes that same people that everyone is expecting so much of.
The internet sucks, and brings out the worst in people.
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“Things aren’t so bad” go in both directions too though. There are also a lot of people who blindly defend any decision devs make with no thought on how it affects the game, them or others (RNG being a massive topic that people have surprisingly little empathy for both ways).
For the devs, their actions should be the primary source of defence, their communications the second. They don’t need outside people trying to paper over or minimise issues other people bring up to shout down people that may or may not be having issues with the game.
Death threats and personally attacking people should never be a thing, I agree, and there is quite a bit of that around, but I am not trying to normalise nor excuse people for acting that way. Attack the idea or action, not the person.
But the majority of the “positive” posts I’ve seen just take a wide brush that paints everyone with any criticism, constructive or not as “haters”, which is what views like “like it or leave it” seem to convey to me.
You can be critical of players that plug their ears and ignore issues the game has, and you can be critical of the game too. (Also, I’m not arguing that work needs to be done. (More content pls.)) But how people view each other inside the community isn’t really what I’m worried about.
My primary concern is the way this community, like so many others before it, has gotten on to this crappy trajectory of increasing toxicity directed at the developers of a game. When I see endless posts on here/reddit where people say that they don’t care if FS goes under because of DT, or comments attacking the community managers directly, it starts to go a bit beyond fair criticism, and out of the same realm that overly positive posts exist in.
Because you simply can’t equate hollow positivity with direct attacks on the company/individuals within it. A fanboy painting everyone as a hater is worth an eyeroll, but an angry fanboy saying that Aqshy ‘spews crap’ because something she said didn’t line up one time is another thing entirely.
It’s a slow buildup, but it’s worse now than it’s ever been, and it’ll keep on that trajectory until the beast is fed. And even then, that’ll only set the clock back until we end up here again.
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Yeah, I understand that too, but some of it does fall on Fatshark as a whole based on their actions and how they have communicated with the community. It’s a combination of them aiming for and to a degree hitting a wider audience (successfully), a poor release (timing and state), trading in their reputation from the previous game (which has a very dedicated fanbase) for what is perceived as monetisation above everything else, and said wider audience probably being one of the more dedicated fanbases for a property.
Not to condone personal attacks towards the devs and other staff at Fatshark, but it is understandable why a lot of people feel the way they do and unfortunately some of them resort posting their frustrations in a non-constructive way. While the adage "don’t shoot the messenger"is still relevant today, it’s hard to not conflate the 2 (devs and CMs) based on some of the communications we get. A community has to be fostered which I think Fatshark isn’t really doing its job with either.
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A number of people end up engaging in brand fanaticism, and feel the need to jump to the defence of the appointed corporation du jour. The same thing takes place in various contexts, and across various industries.
The Apple customer base is a prime example, with rampant brand fanaticism running rife. You see the same with “intel vs amd” debates, or “xbox vs ps” debates.
Certain types of people are prone to developing emotional attachments due to length of association, even when the attachment is to an abstract or a faceless entity. From that point onwards their responses tend to be emotional and defensive, rather than rational or objective.
They tend to seek out people or conversations that will reinforce their confirmation bias, and lash out against those that have differing opinions.
People become so buried in their insular, self-imposed echo chambers, that they come to resent the noise of those outside moving past.
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I think part of it is that they may feel that if they don’t defend the company, the thing that they enjoy will be taken away from them.
Depend on the what people say on FS:
- Inane attack that FS is malicious and a scam → Dubious and stupid.
- General Incompetence and over promiser → Fully correct.
And I don’t fear for Darktide, i know that FS will keep at it, as it’s what they did with VT2
Why protect… Probably because they love the game. I also adore it and have been playing it for quite some time.
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Because I know this game will be amazing and because even a dev or a community manager of a company that had a less than stellar launch deserves not to be shat on 24/7 all the time.
Better question: Why are you upset at “fanboys” fanboying over their game, but think we should accept you “hating” over the game?
Why is one acceptable and not the other?
Also I keep seeing this “They scammed me” comment over and over. How? How did they scam you?
The game delivered everything that was promised on the store page.
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Apparently, a feature complete game that can run itself was not promised then.
It launched Feature Complete by what was advertized. Always was. Everything the community was asking for what the devs talked about such as crafting were never part of the advertized product. Legally speaking, they were always extra.
I know, I’m being pedantic, here. But let’s go over every single advertizement point on the Store Page on Steam:
Take back the city of Tertium from hordes of bloodthirsty foes in this intense and brutal action shooter. Warhammer 40,000: Darktide is the new co-op focused experience from the award-winning team behind the Vermintide series.
In the depths of the hive, the seeds of corruption threaten to turn into an overwhelming tide of darkness. A mysterious and sinister new force is seeking to take control of the entire city. It is up to you and your allies in the Inquisition to root out the enemy before the city succumbs to Chaos.
As Tertium falls, Rejects Will Rise.
Advertized setting is in the game - Check
Built on the legacy of Vermintide 2’s best-in-class melee combat, Warhammer 40,000: Darktide introduces intense WH40K gunplay to the mix. Master the balance between ranged and melee combat as you fight through a slew of enemies. Feel the impact of each swipe, swing, and slice of a chainsword, or fry some flesh with a lasgun.Game is mix of VT2 melee + added ranged combat - Check
At its core, Darktide is a co-op game. Wandering too far, risks punishment by foes looking to immobilize or capture stray Rejects, such as the slavering Chaos Hound or the Moebian Trapper. Once you fall prey to such foes, only your teammates can save you! More than that, your innate toughness – your determination to press on through the pain – only recharges when you are in the proximity of your strike team.Game features advertized coop features - Check
Create your own, unique character and customize their physical appearance, voice, and origin. Choose your class to determine which unique traits and skill sets they will make use of in battle. Will you be a seasoned veteran of the Imperial army, a snarky outsider, or a fiery zealot? The choice is yours.Game allows you to customize your character - Check
Step into the violent, dystopian world of Warhammer 40,000. From boiling hot industrial factories to the decaying water maintenance zone afflicted by constant acid rainfall - Tertium Hive is a hard and unforgiving place even at the best of times. Your role is to serve the zealous Inquisition by embarking on missions to exterminate the threats lurking in the depths of the hive city, or die trying.Setting and Backdrop matches - Check
Adapt to the erratic whims of Chaos with conditions- mutators that add a spontaneous challenge to your mission. Your team must learn to adjust, adopt new tactics and change up their loadouts to face these ruthless challenges.Mutators are in the game and work as advertized - Check
Nowhere is there talk of crafting or of gear or of anything else.
All the advertized features of the game were in on launch.
The steam store is just one venue. They ramped up advertisement in dev blogs, articles and interviews the months before release. Plenty of advertisement was done shortly before launch and a lot of that advertisement was telling a different story than what the actual game delivered. Some of the most noticable things for me was the promise of a deeper character build customization instead of multiple careers/classes on launch (I doubted that would be the case) and a progression system that valued the players time and offered more player agency (“lessons learned”, they said).
I won’t track down those articles and interviews for you, and in most cases one could argue that those things are subject to change even if they are advertised or revealed just a few months prior to game release. Anyway, let’s use crafting as the main example. They did give notice that crafting would be delayed 1 day before the official launch. It was still supposed to come out in December, but disregarding that, they also made promises about what the crafting system would look like (check dev blog crafting, end of November). The crafting they delivered, a few months later, is nothing like what they promised.
Personally, I was leaning towards refuding the game at the end of November, mainly since I remember how the release of Vermintide 2 went. Against my better judgement, I ended up actually putting faith in the promises FS made late November instead of refunding. If I could take that decision back, I would, in a heartbeat. I stopped playing the game around New Years/Winter holidays and haven’t played since. I did launch Darktide after the main crafting update., checked it out, quickly realized how much time I would have to spend with inventory management and how little player agency the “progression” system would offer, and shut down the game again after half an hour or so.
If progresssion isn’t fixed I won’t pick the game up again and my decision (not to refund) is definitely based on broken promises/false advertisement. It doesn’t matter if they can be sued or not (speaking legal matters), but what they advertised their product as.
As an example of why it matters to look past the legality:
These last two years we’ve had quite a few NFT projects and blockchain currency released just for them to be cancelled soon after. Legally speaking the person launching the project may get a way scot free, but it’s definitely not what was advertised to those who invested in the project.
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EU consumer protection states that you have to communicate clearly (coherently in all channels) what a product will include, their claims were never cleared up, and the steam page was left ambiguous.
there is no defending that,
the videogame market is largely spared by persecution of the law, why that is, is left to speculation,
might be that gamers tend to not take actions against offenses due to the weird relationship we have towards devs, especially those who created a gem we liked so much, and as result are less willing to damage the future Potential emergence of another gem.
regardless of what it is, we also have the problem, that the legal apparatus is quite inexperienced in handling the gaming industry, as of yet.
not too long ago, a Belgium jury had a dispute with EA-sports wether or not the lootboxes in (i think it was NBA18?) were gambling (and as such would fall under much strikter laws) if not removed.
even tho its blatantly obvious that these boxes function 1 to 1 like a digital version of a slot machine.
the legal system were yet to catch up and reach that epiphany.
all in all i personally think that big game devs come up with new BS practices faster than the legal systems can define and categorize these practices.
the current gaming market mostly revolves around goodwill, its a recurring theme that is quite obvious once you notice it,
and there are several strategies you might find companies are subscribing to,
“head in sand”
release messy game, (plummet in good will)
wait a bit
start releasing patches and fixes
wait some more
(may require repeats)
once goodwill reaches a neutral point
slowly hype up new game
wait some more,
release messy game (plumets againg)
wich company were you thinking of?
well bethesda is famous for this.
but there are other practices employed,
the “meet in the middle”
come up with horrible anti consumer feature,
results in outrage
move back 10 steps, to a much less offensive version (wich is the originally intended way, and still very bad for the clients)
actually recieving praise for listening to your community, even tho you just sold the a horrible feature.
-Profit
who were you thinking of?
well Wargaming, and gamesworkshop love this strategy.
I think this happens far more than it should. Games companies know something is going to be badly received but it makes a ton of cash, so they put together something abominable that hides the slightly awful thing.
This is actually some people’s management style, in that they do something horrid to their staff to cover up for something slightly bad they’re doing elsewhere. Classic misdirection.
I don’t think this is the case with FS though. I think they’ve simply built their financial model around the cosmetic store, restricting crafting and forcing false grind. If they unlock everything their financial model is significantly harmed as it no longer represents the direction FS are trying to force their player into that -in the forecast at least - generated the money.
So now they’re stuck. They need cash to keep servers going and pay staff they’ve taken on, but they’ve driven away a monstrous chunk of their player base (including very loyal VT2 fans like me with 4k hours) and I certainly have no intention of buying a bloody thing in DT, even though I want DKOK skins badly and had even hoped for some cosplay of Brin Milo, Major Rawne, Harlon Nayle, Godwin Fischig… you get the idea.
FS must be making some wonga though, as the royalties for GW for VT2 were surprisingly high. A massive chunk of the income stream for GW was VT2 royalties. So the sales are there enough for GW to hand over 40k.
Still, I stopped defending FS with Winds of Magic - an expansion that has eerily forecasted the launch of DT.
Failure to undertand what makes your game fun, and failure to alter or improve the stumbling blocks that infuriate your customers results in a terrible launch of both the DLC, and DT.
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