Why a Lifelong Summoner Main thinks Necromancer sucks

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
1

I have mained the summoner class in basically every game I’ve played where it’s possible. Necromancer in Diablo 2, Necromancer in Guild Wars, Necromancer in Guild Wars 2, Warlock in World of Warcraft, Witchdoctor in Diablo 3, Crusader with turrets in Inquisitor Martyr and then Tech Adept when that expansion came out, Engineer in TF2, Engineer in Risk of Rain 2, Engineer in Deep Rock Galactic, turrets and conversion build in Payday 2, and many others.

I am a lifelong summoner class player, and I do not like Sienna’s Necromancer. It might even be my least favorite Sienna career.

I have to try and explain why. It’s gnawing at me. Probably because I’m still sore about Heroes of the Storm ruining all of its summoners one by one.

There are lots of ways to play a summoner and a variety of things a summoner player gets out of being a summoner, and I feel like the Necromancer doesn’t really do any of them very well. I like to manage minions, fight alongside them, commanding them, utilizing them to their full potential, but there’s not actually that much to DO with the skeletons except Have Them Around, and resummon them when they die.

Controlling the skeletons is a bit cumbersome and not usually worth the effort or the danger of pulling out a thing you can’t block with. That said I’m not sure how it could be improved, except maybe with its own dedicated button instead of sharing the potion slot. Maybe it could be like Engineer Bardin’s gun, where pressing the Ability Button brings out the control item, and pressing the Ability Button while the control item is equipped will summon the skeletons.

There isn’t very much synergy between the summoning and skeleton related mechanics and the talents. Malediction is good; converting flames into a debuff so most of your ranged attacks become curses. It’s a nice idea, but in practice the skeletons do so little damage that 20% doesn’t really make much of a difference. The fire itself is more likely to kill the enemies than taking extra damage from skeletons, even on the beefed up Dread Seneschal boys. I feel like Malediction should cause 20% increased damage from Sienna but like 50% or 100% increased damage from skeletons.

Instead there’s a bunch of Crit stuff. I feel the bonus crit mechanics are unnecessary. Summoning skeletons to fight for you is like five new things to do in game that no other class has; they should be worked into every aspect of the class, but instead NecroSienna is mostly about critical hits. Lifetaker, Reaping, Cursed Blood, and Soul Harvest can all go. And also Death Ascendant, since it’s boring and has nothing to do with skeletons.

I like the concept of sacrificing skeletons to vent heat, but the item is annoying to keep switching to. Instead of doing this through an item, it should be worked into the use of a staff. This might be good as a Passive, a replacement for Lifetaker, something every build has.
Possible permutations:
-Venting while at high heat vents lots of heat instantly and deals no damage, but kills a skeleton
-Venting with your staff deals no damage to Sienna if any of her skeletons are alive, they take the damage instead, but take more than Sienna would have. Like, 200% or 300% or something. I don’t know, I’ll leave numbers out of this so you can just pretend it’s balanced.
-If you overcharge, all skeletons die, and you take some damage instead of exploding, with the amount of damage taken decreasing the number of skeletons sacrificed. At least three skeletons are needed, otherwise the damage will still be enough to incapacitate you.

One of these could be the passive, and another could be a Tier 4 talent.

I read the dev post about building NecroSienna into a “Melee” build, a “Ranged” build, and a “Summoner” build, but those aren’t great concepts for the Necromancer Class, because her career skill is always going to be summon skeletons. She’s always a summoner. That needs to be her gimmick that the rest of the career is built around. If someone wants to play Sienna and focus on melee or on ranged, THEY SHOULD PLAY OTHER SIENNA CAREERS.

So instead I’ve been brainstorming three other main builds, all organized around summoning. I’ve kept two of them still tied to the idea of a “melee” build and a “ranged” build though.

Build 1, The Gang Leader
The build for people who play the summoner class because they want to attack as a group.

Design Notes:
The “melee” build.
Gets stuck in alongside her skeletons.
Does most of the damage herself with melee attacks.
The summoner and the minions support each other.
Rarely bothers to pull out the skeleton command item.
Become stronger when skeletons are close.
Skeletons are buffed when Sienna is in melee.

Build 2, The Taskmaster
The build for people who play summoner because they like to sit back and laugh while they throw expendable minions to their deaths.

Design Notes:
The “ranged” build.
Fights at range, minions are her meat shield.
Does most of the damage herself with ranged attacks.
Minions are there to support the summoner.
Uses the skeleton command item every now and again to make them form lines.
Spends skeletons like a resource.

Build 3, The Commander
The build for people who play summoner because they like to support their minions and control the battlefield from afar.

Design Notes:
The most summoniest summoner build.
Fights at range, but is mostly focused on managing minions.
Skeletons do as much damage or more damage than Sienna.
Minions are there for the summoner to support.
Uses her attacks to ignite enemies so that minions will do more damage to them
Constantly switching between her weapon and the skeleton command item.

Possible Tier 2 Talents

Gang Leader
Some form of buffing Sienna while she’s near her skeletons:
-Danse Macabre is basically fine and would fit here, perhaps changed to be proximity based.
-Sienna gains a small amount of damage reduction for each skeleton within a small range around her, skeletons gain this same amount as well.

Taskmaster
Some form of buffing Sienna at the expense of her skeletons
-Skeletons generate significantly more threat, even more if they are near Sienna or if they’re ordered to form a line
-A percentage of damage Sienna takes is dealt to her skeletons instead

Commander
Some form of buffing skeletons at Sienna’s expense
-Sienna’s ranged attacks deal considerably less damage, but always ignite, and charged ranged attacks ignite enemies in an area
-Malediction increases damage from skeletons by a much greater amount, but no longer increases Sienna’s damage

Possible Tier 4 Talents

Gang Leader
Some form of buffing skeletons from having Sienna in melee
-Sienna’s heavy attack kills heal nearby skeletons
-Sienna’s light attacks increase skeleton damage by a small amount for a short time, can stack a lot

Taskmaster
Some form of utilizing skeleton deaths
-Skeletons grant a short lived damage bonus to Sienna when they die, significantly more and for much longer if sacrificed
-Skeletons grant Sienna a bunch of temporary health when they die, more if sacrificed
-Skeletons explode when they die, explode bigger if sacrificed
-Ordering skeletons to attack something causes one of them to suicide bomb the target
-A better method of venting via skeleton sacrifice, as mentioned above

Commander
Some form of buffing skeletons from Sienna attacking at range
-Igniting your skeletons with your own spells buffs them in some way, like for example healing them, raising their damage, giving them damage reduction, or some combination.

Possible Tier 5 Talents - Raise Dead Augment

Gang Leader
-Barrow Blades (unchanged), can use Raise Dead like an area disruption attack, and causes skeletons to ignite enemies so that Sienna can do more damage to them.

Taskmaster
-Raise Dead summons two additional skeletons with additional health. These two skeletons will always stay by Sienna’s side even if she orders her skeletons elsewhere, and will perform a charge attack at any enemy that attacks Sienna in melee.
-Or maybe one of the On Skeleton Death talents mentioned above
-A variation of Army of the Dead that increases max skeletons, and possibly reduces cooldown, perhaps by a flat amount, or maybe by a small amount on crit or ranged kill or when a skeleton is sacrificed or something.
-Or Army of the Dead unchanged, as having more skeletons in general would synergize well with being able to blow them up somehow. This would be more useful than Army of the Dead currently is, since skeleton damage is crap and twenty seconds doesn’t really let them be good guards.

Commander
-Dread Seneschal, skeletons are stronger, gain substantial bonus damage when ordered to attack, and gain substantial damage reduction when ordered to defend.

Right now only the Gang Leader is possible, and only because it’s the one of my three that has the least to do with skeletons and the most to do with Sienna. But it’s also my least favorite, for the same reason. I don’t expect this to be read much less implemented, but like I said my disappointed in NecroSienna has been really gnawing at me. If nothing changes about her, I’m just not gonna play Necromancer anymore. Boo.

6 Likes
2

This is actually a pretty great idea, the current use of potion button causes way too many accidental potion usage

I’d also suggest allowing the item be able to push or block as well.

This too is by far my biggest criticism of Necromancer Sienna.

The most Necro thing about her is her career skill, but the rest of her talent and skills don’t really capitalize on the identity

2 Likes
3

Necro is a pretty balanced career but she doesn’t play like a summoner and commanding skeletons is awkward and burdensome.

I use dagger on her to take advantage of the crits which seems to perform best and use the skeletons with Deadly Senechals because they can be durable and even stagger chaos warriors, but I have to micro manage them too much to keep their damage buff up.

The skeleton perks for level 30 seem to go from left to right as crappy, ok, best.

From a lore perspective Grave Guard would be a cool alternative for Deadly Senechals and just give them a passive buff and more health with no need for commands to get a buff and reduce the total to 5.

For the perk which allows you to keep them 20 seconds longer after a new summon, I would extend that time to 60 seconds and throw in a 20% ability cooldown with a maximum of 30 skeletons at one time.

For the DPS fire skeletons, I would like them to hit multiple enemies or attack faster and prioritize lighting all nearby enemies on fire.

I think having a staff that summons temporary skeletons up to a certain number on top of the level 30 skeletons would be neat and give it a weak shot for hitting specials.

I like your idea to tie the skill to her ability and it would be nice if when you tell them to attack an elite/special, the attack command lasts for 10 seconds in which they prioritize specials/elites.

4

I like the scythe on unchained Sienna, that combo is nice with all the attack speed on high heat. That said, I also normally always play summoner in any game that allows me, especially necromancer. I found a summoner build I liked with Sienna Necro:

image
image1403×755 114 KB

image
image546×521 85.5 KB

image

Main thing is daggers heavy 1 does flame dot and barrow blades from skeletons also applies it, and because knife attacks so fast you can proc cursed blood a lot.

For soul stealer staff I just use the primary a lot into the horde and get stacks on death ascendent before moving in with dagger. I also hit a bunch with left one before using the secondary soul sock on chaos warriors and monsters to keep death ascendent high and sacrifice skeletons to keep heat low.

5

I also love summoning builds and I’ve also played most of those games. Vermintide is definitely a unique game, but most importantly it’s a first person horde survival melee game. From playing other games with necro/summoning, the necromancer class was almost exactly what I was expecting in vermintide. They went a little heavy on the crit hits in my opinion, but I think that was really the only way to capitalize on the slow swings of scythe on necro, and allows decent melee build with any melee weapon. I wasn’t expecting the skeletons to dominate either, they were never going to carry the necro and the rest of the team through cata level gameplay. The biggest assist they provide, like summons do in most games, is fodder. They take agro away from you and teammates by just existing which is huge. Two of the lvl 30 talents provide decent utility depending on what you want/what your team comp is lacking in. The talent for raising more than 6 could definitely use some work. But overall, in my opinion the class was done very well and fits into the game without being too op or underwhelming. Takes some learning for sure, like all of the 4th careers, and the button lay out isn’t too bad when you get used to it. I don’t think they’re going to rework the necromancer much with how long they spent working on her, but some of those ideas would have been good when they were first designing her lol. I would’ve like to see a more powerful summoning build too, but I also know how much a game like diablo struggles with balancing that. Hell difficulty diablo 2 necromancer, tier 17 diablo 3 summoner witch doctor, late game diablo 4… it’s either they’ll be op and kill everything or they’re just fodder. My biggest concern was the skeles dying in vermintide on cata too quick which isn’t much of an issue. Cata+ and twitch mode/deeds they definitely struggle, but summons builds always struggle on the highest difficulties

6

Fatshark did a great job making a summoner class with real summoning, not just decorative minions, without having to nerf the player. I agree a lot of necromancer’s talents don’t directly synergize with the minions. But a lot do. She’s gotta be able to stand on her own and use the minions in meaningful ways. I think they achieved that.

I think she’s balanced quite well. Her talents being spread across melee, ranged, and minion buffs make each dimension feel a bit lacking, indeed. But she brings every dimension. Kinda like ranger veteran and mercenary, she ends up being inherently versatile with a lot of utility and no glaring weakness. I do think it makes up for a lack of ranged or melee depth and gives her a unique identity and playstyle alongside Sienna’s other careers.

I do like your thinking with making the minions far more integral. I think it would be a valid approach. You’d need ways to regularly raise minions, and you’d need to nerf Sienna herself, if you want to shift her damage to the skeletons. I think it would be fun to have a talent that blows up the skeleton you release to vent. The 15s of igniting hits is not bad but a bit underwhelming in practice - explosions would be a fun replacement.

However I agree with you strongly that the ult never should have been placed in the potion slot. It is so easy to fumble inputs. I suggested before the career’s release that they make it like crankgun. Press ult to wield skull, then left click, right click, and special attack to spawn, attack, and defend.

7

I don’t think you’d need to nerf Sienna herself to make the Necromancer largely be about the minions. In my proposed idea, only some of her skills would do that. Two, maybe three at most, one in each skill tier. That way, there is a specific build, where you take all of that stuff at once, that makes your minions the bigger damage source, and Sienna is weakened a bit to compensate. But, if you don’t take those skills, then Sienna would still be the main damage dealer. Also, I don’t imagine that said nerfs would ever bring Sienna below baseline, just reduce the bonuses granted by other skills or passives.

You’re right that a skill set that relies so heavily on the skeletons should make it easier to summon them though. Maybe it should be a passive that NecroSienna’s ability bar recharges faster the fewer skeletons she has.

Here’s a wild idea, maybe the skeletons could just constantly respawn automatically. Not all of them and not instantly of course. I’m thinking maybe just two, and with something like a five or ten second timer in between one of your last two skeletons dying and a new one appearing at Sienna’s side. Two skeletons aren’t going to account for five percent of Sienna’s DPS and won’t be able to hold a group of enemies off for longer than a few seconds, especially on any higher difficulty, but having them around would at least give Sienna the option of consuming one to vent her overheat, or blow them up. And then maybe Army of the Dead could make it so that all six respawn constantly, and using the ability summons six more who last twenty seconds.

8

Been a bit, still think about this every once in a while, had an idea about how the skeleton summoning item could be made more of a core part of NecroSienna’s playstyle.

Building on the idea of having her ability work like Engineer Bardin’s crank gun, the concept I’m kicking around is that the six skeletons aren’t summoned all at once. Pressing the ability button has Sienna pull out the skull. The other functions remain unchanged, but pressing the ability button while the skull is equipped will summon one skeleton, which uses up one sixth, or about 17%, of Sienna’s ability bar. Like with the crank gun, you can pull the skull out and summon any number of skeletons whenever no matter how much ability bar you currently have, not just when at full.

I think this would make it easier to always have at least a few skeletons around, and also get NecroSienna players more into the habit of switching to and from the skull, as well as get rid of the clunky and cumbersome sharing with the potion slot. It would unfortunately interfere somewhat with the Barrow Blades talent’s burst on using the summon. It could instead cause a much smaller flame burst, but it would have to lose the ability to shove monsters.

Ah, perhaps if summoning could be charged up if you held it down. The longer you hold it, the more skeletons are summoned, and if you have Barrow Blades, the larger the flame puff and the bigger the stagger, and at max charge it can stagger monsters.

I still don’t care for the Necromancer career, or rather “this melee crit Sienna build who also happens to have some skeletons nearby.” Still hoping they decide to lose all the crit stuff and put more actual summoning stuff in her skill tree.