Yeah I wanted to say I’m not asking for miracles but, it’s Fatshark and… you’re right.
Believe me, I tried a lot to play that… thing
Havoc is designed AGAINST specific gameplays. It is meant to push for defensive abilities (chorus and bubble).
If Havoc, and their modifiers, were not designed AGAINST specific gameplays, I would agree with you
But let’s take ONE example. How can you balance a ranged weapon with something that would work great and in Auric and in Havoc in term of ammunitions?
The hidden modifier for ammo will kill any try…
And they designed Havoc around this…
Havoc has modifiers that forbid any balance around it if you don’t want to kill all other difficulties.
I have to apologize if you think I was rude. I totally understand your feeling. And even I am disappointed they have gone for such bad design.
But.. I have to repeat, Havoc is so broken that you cnnot balance something around it. Sorry. Very sorry.
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Not if Fatshark can use Auric and/or Damnation for a specified template where they can then adjust Havoc’s unique Modifiers accordingly. Which they should, as Auric and/or Damnation should be the point where Players are held to a specific standard, or they wipe. Heresy and below can be for the Players who want a fun, casual experience in the game. Havoc can then be the gimmicky “endgame” mode it was always meant to be. Everyone can be happy, if a specific standard is upheld.
In response, I think that wanting an Ability removed because it’s too strong in Havoc when there’s the option to just fix whatever’s making it too strong in Havoc, is significantly more “myopic and selfish”, respectfully.
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Balanced doesn’t mean all difficulties are the same. It could mean, for example, that you take a look at whether something is underperforming or overperforming relative to other abilities, classes, weapons etc.
Obviously enemy health needs to be larger and they need to do more dmg (or players have less health) on higher difficulties. To a first approximation. This is an example of a scaling modifier affecting difficulty. Scaling modifiers can affect more than just enemy and player health. It can be applied to weapons, dots, toughness regen, you name it.
The fact is these are solvable problems but require dev time beyond just adjusting some health value up or down in some spreadsheet somewhere.
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You cannot realistically balance the game around Havoc. It is not possible to achieve good balance in a mode that scales differently at each level and applies changing modifiers that constantly alter breakpoints and enemy behavior.
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I don’t want the game balanced around a single difficulty at all.
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Here we agree totally.
This is what they should have done… and the first time I realized that it was when they introduced assail. It was totally stupid in lower difficulties.
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And I am not arguing for balance around a single difficulty either. My point is that Havoc itself needs a revamp. The way Havoc scales and stacks modifiers is a major reason why so many balance problems exist in the first place, because it pushes players toward extreme solutions that then bleed into balance discussions elsewhere. ( Gold, Cleave, dots etc. )
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Havoc exacerbates the balancing problems (and this is a real shame that they could not come with a new difficulty enjoyable for all).
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damage/finesse perks should be removed, they affect weapons and builds in different magnetudes, and that’s bad, it renders useless any type of attempt at balancing since the talent tree update
starting from the blue perks, and then see which keystone and class abilities need to be polished
It (high Havoc) was not meant to be a difficulty that’s accessible to players of all skill levels, so on that front it’s impossible to get a consensus on what’s „fair enough”.
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Same problem affects brainburst. It goes from completely OP on the lowest difficulties to almost useless on higher Havoc. There’s an ability that desperately needs a scaling modifier. That doesn’t mean it needs to 1shot everything on Havoc in the same way it does on Malice, that would be absurd.
But it’s an example of an ability that very negatively interacts with not only enemy health but also enemy numbers and the frequency of specials and horde. Beacuse it’s not just about the damage it does, but how much time you need to spend basically defenseless while charging it up. In this way it seems to have an unintended side-effect because of how it interacts both with enemy health but also the fact that you’re constantly surrounded by enemies. It becomes exponentially worse as the game difficulty increases.
With respect to bubble it is just another issue similar to yellow toughness. It’s strength is sort of inverse with game difficulty. It is completely unnecessary on the lowest difficulties, but completely dominates the game on the highest to an extend where it reduces build variety players will take.
Okay, removing it entirely might be a step too far then. And there might be more to the question than just simply adjusting bubble performance itself, but would also require taking a look at it’s other interactions. Maybe it shouldn’t completely negate ranged attacks, just reduce the dmg it does (maybe reduce ranged dmg taken by 50%?). Maybe it shouldn’t completely block BoN vomit, or if it did, maybe BoN behavior should change when there’s a bubble up. There’s a lot of stuff to play with to find balance that wouldn’t completely ruin other difficulties in the game.
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I don’t ask that it is for all.
But face it, a lot not ready for it want to be part of it…
I just say that the design is terrible… especially o balance things.
And that’s totally Fatshark fault, due to the Havoc design, if we cannot consider, at all, Haoc for balancing purpose.
And that’s not something that should have happen…
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Really no point in asking for nerfs in this game since fatshark obviously don’t want to.
At this point I just want them to give the dclaw unnerfed uncanny strike
Hmmm… Fair. Making a new difficulty level is just pointless with the current power level we have to deal with, and frankly, Havoc solves most of these problems (akhem Psyker is still insanely busted) - by limiting what’s good, or making stuff that is less good at least have a niche in specific roles. And honestly - this works in Havoc, since you get more cooperative elements in it than in regular play.
The major issue with the state of the balance right now is that issues are a pile of problems that is not very feasible to sift through anymore. These issues should have been tackled as far back as P13 post-release, but weren’t, and I don’t know why nor is it really productive to speculate on; but the matter of fact is that tackling balance is not worthwhile from the perspective of keeping the business afloat.
New content is almost always going to pay off, whereas balancing matters can only make things worse/require attention of an already limited developer team. Ideally it should be both, but if it has not happened until now, I doubt that major changes will happen any time soon.
If they don’t solve balancing, they will kill the interest for the game for a lot of players.
Guess what happens when you release a DLC for a game that nobody plays?
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They need to embrace more mutually-exclusive nodes. Make us choose either this awesome thing or that awesome thing, not both and those others over there, too.
It’d also serve to increase build variety, which IMO is the only thing that’d make all the effort required by the trees worthwhile.
My big 3 would be:
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Rumbler - I really looked forward to a good Rumbler build, but what we got was a boringly OP one.
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Gold toughness - If I want to play a superhero game I’ll go play a superhero game.
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The characters’ collective armor rending/brittleness. JHC, at this point the only thing DT’s rather elaborate armor system really does is shuffle a huge number of weapons into the “severely under-performing” category. (It also plays havoc with the “Warhammer” fantasy: A DT weapon’s effectiveness is too dependent on the rather arbitrary benefits of Blessings rather than lore/realism appropriate characteristics.)
Bonus item: Scryer’s Gaze. I don’t find it as aggravating as the others, but as a psyker main don’t I deserve to explode and die for my ULTIMATE POWER sometimes?
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Hello! 
I like to keep up to date, but mostly I just come here to enjoy the schadenfreude.
On one hand, most casual people do not care about the balancing issues, and these people come and go - they don’t frequent communities very often, which is where majority of the discussion is taking place.
On the other hand, dedicated people may lose interest over time, but FS is doing a pretty good job with what limited resources they have to make community event-adjacent updates to the game that apparently are keeping people engaged.
When it’s not post-patch period, the game has had thousands of players logged in between big patches. However long that will last - who can say. There is highs and lows in interest in the game, though, and that’s what seems to matter the most for its current lifecycle.
This is true.
I don’t know if they can invert the move… but you’re correct.