I actually have been on the otherside of a death stack of modded players, it is not fun to get instantly beamed on spawn, if anyone thinks it would be any better in darktide, they are overestimating their ability
2 Likes
VT2 Vs should play like the original Vermintide, ie nothing but bombs and potions found on the map for the heroes and no classes or ults/hero skills besides temp HP. I didn’t know anyone who wanted to play that and get aimbotted over cover by Waystalker ult, or watch your damage get erased by a Priest. And the ranking up nonsense ruined it.
1 Like
PvP in these types of games is absolutely possible as L4D showed from the beginning. Anything is possible, it could be done, but the effort required for a fun PvP mode in Darktide would be more work than just about anything else, for a payoff very few are looking for, and that very few took up when offered in VT2. I don’t think Darktide in its current state, as is, would be very fun for the Heretics beyond trying it once or twice for giggles.
L4D built PvP in from the get-go, and is substantially more toned down in terms of player ability. The Survivors are far less capable than the Rejects are not just in terms of raw killing power but also with support abilities and mobility, while the Special Infected are more threatening (e.g. a Boomer doesn’t just blow up the way a Poxburster does, they have a ranged vomit attack and explosion goo that calls a Horde and causes significant visual disruption, the Hunter can scale walls and attack from directions in ways the Pox Hound just can’t, the Tank has ranged attacks and can throw people off ledges in ways the Mutie does not, the Smoker won’t just net you like a Trapper but will physically pull you away, and the Witch is never a trivial threat the way the Daemonhost can be turned into).
Level design in L4D likewise doesn’t have as many long clear fire lanes, and has Friendly Fire. The whole experience is dramatically less forgiving for the Survivors than for the Rejects.
That might be interesting to try once or twice, but repeated runs where you just die immediately all the time (or, just as you get close, someone triggers Shout/Chorus/Shield stopping you in your tracks or largely negating your damage) would get unfun quickly I suspect, and probably would have been more appropriate for the pre-patch 13 players with far simpler and less powerful and complex talent trees.
TL;DR nothing is impossible, but with the game in its current state a PvP mode probably isn’t something that would be fun beyond trying out a couple times, and would require a substantial re-balancing of the game to change that state of affairs, for something with comparatively little demand.
Yes but you’d get loads of attempts as the enemies. That’s the fun of it. Trying to ruin the good guys run. You’re not going to be strong but you can find clever ways to ruin them. Use the environment or work together.
Do all of you have the imagination part of your grey matter missing or what 
that just is not how it works in reality, player power + skill always trumps number of attempts. I can get you into a lobby with a few verm backliners if you want to see what I mean
1 Like
But you’d not have to wait to be rescued as an enemy. You would just respawn a few seconds later. You could potentially even choose which nearby spawn point you use, to your advantage and get sneaky. Playing as an enemy isn’t about staying alive it’s about getting that one lucky shot that causes ruin for their run. Dying doesn’t mean anything as an enemy player.
Again, you guys are lacking imagination here.
You’ve decided in no time at all that it wouldn’t be fun. Kinda crazy tbh.
This happens for almost every conversation in the forums lol.
Well I think it would be fun and I think it would be worth the time to implement. I don’t think it would ever happen but I’d certainly like to play it.
I’d like to play a run as one of the 4 heros and play against humans mixed in to the enemies, and id also like to play as enemies.
If it’s not something you’d enjoy then fine but I’d enjoy it and it would definitely work.
Stop using Vt2 as your basis for comparison. They’re different games. I didn’t even like vt2 when I played it. It felt nothing like DT at all.
They. Are. Different. Games.
Stop comparing.
Or compare to a game where PvP works well, instead of constantly with the 1 game you think it doesn’t.
Darktide has WORSE balance than vermintide. To make darktide verses you would have to remove all ults, talents and the sprint key. Plus eac enabled…
6 Likes
The last thing the game needs is pvp. Not everything needs some lame pvp mode tacked on that will be abandoned by 99.9% of the playerbase after a week.
8 Likes
I get all that, the same largely all holds true for L4D Versus (you’re not trying to survive, you’re trying to ruin the Survivor’s run), but that also genuinely just doesn’t sound very fun beyond trying it once or twice with Darktide as-is. The level of “sneakiness” available to enemies in Darktide is far more limited than it is in something like L4D.
Perhaps, that’s possible, but I’ve played games where such VS is an option, know how they work, and know what I find fun, and running at Rejects over and over, with half the tools such Enemies have in other games and players that are faster and killier and hardier than Survivors, just doesn’t sound like it would be consistently fun with imagining how that would be. Even with L4D, where this is done well, the VS mode’s popularity is highly limited (and insanely toxic, far more than anything we see in Darktide, people get ultramegamad there), while VT2’s VS mode basically withered and died in short order.
Actual maps and new weapons that aren’t just VT2 copy pastes.
Content basically.
2 Likes
Because if we use VT2 PVP flamerat as an example, it’s basically garanteed damage no matter where you spawn. This doesn’t matter much in VT2 since heroes can have Temp HP
There’s also the issue that with lag, knockback doesn’t correctly apply which is like 50% of what makes the VT2 PVP Flamerat relevant (and this one as well, to corner players and put them in bad positions)
I just realized I forgot the other half of my point
There’s 2 possible issues depending on how hit detection works
If it’s like in VT2 with Ratling Gunners (and projectiles from Heroes in general too), the projectiles are CLIENT SIDED, meaning that if in your screen you hit the bullet projectile, then it would count as a hit
On the other hand, if it’s server sided, having lag will effectively make it a lot more harder to hit than it needs to be
Then there’s the issue of player Trappers possibly putting you in spots where you can’t be saved at all (Check VT2 Versus hookrat spots to confirm this)
And lasty, If the PVP mode was made, then dodging trappers/dogs/mutants would obviously be disabled (just like VT2 PVP does it) because otherwise lag would create 50000000 issues, meaning that congrats you won’t be able to “dodge” the trapper, just try to bait the shot behind a wall but even then you could get demolished still because of the projectile being clientside or not
Dude no, this is just lag hell
Have you EVER played darktide with 200 ping? Have you ever been hit by a burster so obviously outside of range? Well guess what happens when you either have lag, or the burster has lag. It’ll hit you so many times in moments it clearly shouldn’t hit
And it’s also such a stupid special to have playeable, at least “kamikaze” characters in other games have some caviat that isn’t “I’ll explode on you”
Boomer from L4D2 coats you but he’s the lowest HP character, and has the slowest movement speed of all specials. His sole point is to NOT go kamikaze, and if he does, to be a risky play, not THE WHOLE POINT
Spitter from L4D2 is a go, spit and die character, she doesn’t punish the Survivors for being close to her, but she punishes survivors who stick into corners and hallways
Poison Globadier from VT2 can be played like a spitter (most suggested way tbh) or be an eternal torret of bombs (Like a grenadier in DT would be), but because his damage scales over time that the hero is inside the globe, spamming is not as annoying
Now we have the burster that is an essentially lose-lose situation with lag, that has no counterplay outside of sniping it from afar or praying lag doesn’t ruin either of you two
He’s the WORST possible special to add in a Versus mode, it encourages braindead plays with no effort at all
Let me now elaborate on the rest of the cast
Dog and Mutant are pretty much okay to go, they’d need better ways to do their job but their basis can easily work in this mode
Tox Bomber would obviously not be available, he has HUGE AoE denial and it’s just silly to have
Scab Bomber could work, I’d say it would need reworks to work like Globadier does
Scab Sniper is just stupidity to have, if you make the shot hitscan then heroes get ruined, if you add huge delays then he would feel extremely bad to play. VT2 PvP solves this by having the ratling be the “sniper”. You can shoot from afar, big dmg if tracking, and heroes can react to it better, while still feeling good to play
And that’s it we ran out of characters to have as specials, most of them aren’t compatible with player controlled shenanigans, most of them will absolutely cause issues, and lastly some of them won’t even be engaging to play as or against
The reason why PvP works a lot better in VT2 is simply beacuse the 5 rat specials available could easily be tweaked to be player compatible
I’m a level 230 on VT2 Versus PvP and easily one of the best players there, please listen to what I’m saying I understand why it wouldn’t work in DT (this is not including the fact that Fatshark will leave DT VS balance to die the moment they release the mode because they’re lazy and won’t address any issues we bring)
2 Likes
I don’t even think the issue is “PvP” in itself, but rather that DT has a lot more focus on ranged even from enemies
In VT2 PvP, literally every single enemy will be melee ranged, except for the following:
- Archers (who do absolutely nothing)
- Globadier (playeable special)
- Ratling Gun (playeable special)
- Flamerat (playeable special)
- Bile Troll (playeable boss)
See how literally no enemies (but archers who are even weaker than stalkers in DT) has ranged? This is why a versus mode works there, because only >>players<< on both teams have effective ranged options
Now let’s use L4D2 as an example, there’s literally 4 units who have ranged
- Tank (playeable boss)
- “Smoker” (playeable special)
- Boomer (playeable special)
- Spitter (playeable special)
See how this repeats again but now even worse for defending DT PvP? ONLY PLAYERS CAN USE RANGED HERE
Now for Darktide…
- Stalkers
- Gunners
- Shotgunners
- Reapers
- Flamer (“playeable” special)
- Bomber (“playeable” special)
- Trapper (“playeable” special)
- Burgle (not sure if playeable boss but we can imagine ig)
See how’s there so many ranged enemies? And they’re kinda needed for the game to work because otherwise nothing stops players to being in the open. PvP would be doomed for this game
3 Likes
Individually, Prestige, something us 1k+ hours vets can use to show our dedication. Something as simple as showing total experience gained/total level.
Collectively, Better community events and more mission modifiers.
Total Package, yes more maps, new biomes and a new enemy faction to face. Space hulk genestealers 3 mission DLC or give it for free and introduce a new character to spearhead these missions. Also have the space hulk be Tzceench corrupted while you’re at it so each map is like Diablo 2 and randomly generated. I know FS had trouble understanding what a randomly generated map means but corridors turning left instead of right (even if its the same layout) does trick the mind and make a huge difference in terms of replay-ability.
1 Like
The most imagination I could have for darktide versus is asynchronous multiplayer where it’s 4 rejects versus like 16 players.
You have to remember that in vermintide cataclysm, special timers are extremely generous compared to darktide, and darktide has numerous special spamming mechanics. Despite this, it is 100% agreed that between darktide and vermintide, limited to like auric difficulty (I’d argue even in havoc in groups) specials are far more dangerous in vermintide than they are in darktide, and that’s even more true in singular instances.
Like as much bs a dog gives you in this game, it does not compare to what an assassin can do the very moment you hear its spawn cue. A trapper shooting its net through tiny holes in the terrain is pretty terrible, but no one here would want to deal with leeches anywhere near slanted or even the slightest bump in a terrain mid dodge, especially during a kite.
And as Vror pointed out, there would be so much lag. There is nothing more agreed upon for this game than how garbage the servers feel in any given moment. You couldn’t even design this game as a versus shooter unless you disabled the dodge button, because everyone rubber bands and everything desyncs constantly.
Even then, there’s the mobility problem. Nerf that, and you get people complaining that it’s not darktide anymore. Keep it the same, and now you have knifelots with IJ speedrunning to the end event becasue the devs thought it best to balance the game mode for heresy difficulty instead of damnation for whatever reason so who cares about woundsmaxxing and damage.
1 Like
lol, let fatshark first bring more content and balance to the base game, and a solo mode (which is still missing after 3 years) before even talking about a pvp mode. that’s like talking about star flight when one hasn’t even flown a balloon.
2 Likes
Victim complex right here
I’m a VT2 versus player, I only play VT2 nowadays because of versus alone (and sometimes weekly CW to help a friend get the win)
It wouldn’t, it really wouldn’t work in DT with the amount of things that would need to change
How do you deal the issue with Knife players having a massive speed boost over those who don’t run Knife?
How do you deal with the issue of 4 dog arbites essentially tagging special players to lock and kill them?
How do you deal with the issue of Ogryn being unplayeable in this mode?
FS has proven they do not fundamentally understand how to design maps for PVP.. if they were serious about it they would hire or communicate with members from the original Left for dead series to truly understand concepts with room/angles/positioning/balance/etc before even attempting to throw themselves at a PvP experience. The devs do not understand the rotation/gameplay/experience enough to become a master of influence and to even to flirt with such a thing is an embarrassment to the genre itself. Sit yourself down FS and realize you are story tellers NOT GENRE DEFINERS.
They aren’t that different, you just wasn’t able to understand that because V2 is better tuned game and not arcadish like DT. Almost all enemies are copypasted from V2. Core combat mechanics are form V2. Planty of weapons, talents, abilitites and gear progression.
Except that V2 has a better balance. Any V2 veteran will grasp DT gameplay easely with some habbits adjustements.
Bruh. Nice triple AAA examples with the budgets of the Mars expedition space programm. Are you gonna sponsoring it personaly from your pocket? Or will you ask Sony, EA, Epic? Ubi is dead kinda.
And again all this games have ARENA PvP modes.
Oh yes, arena hack’n’slash. Maybe any relevant example of the games that close to DT? Both in the genre and studio size/budget?
SM2 PvP was designed from the start with a separate level design.
SM2 doesn’t have a PvP mode where you are playing as lictor, zoantrope, carnifex etc.
The thing is that all small budget “4 coop horde shooters” failed with PvP - Killing Floor 2, V2. SM2 has no L4D alike PvP.
All you have are games with completely different DNA that made a different type of PvP, that was mostly from the start and with big ass budgets.
L4D is the only example from 2008, made by highly competent and resourcefull stuidio - Valve.
You both are operating with “i jus feel” and “would be cool” fantasies instead of facts and precedents.
2 Likes