Weapon buff suggestions (Ranged Weapons mostly)

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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I wanted to make my own little list of suggestions to not make a giant wall of text in the new balance mega thread. Ill focusing on buffs that would make more ranged weapons viable in havoc, I believe a decent few guns could become legitimately fun and viable options if just given small buffs. Some things could use a nerf but honestly nothing is crazy unreasonable currently in the context of havoc/auric maelstrom, some definitely over preform but I think making more weapons good or a little OP is better then just nerfing the fun out of existing things, or leaving the vast majority of guns just feeling like downgrades for no reason. I might touch on melee weapons later, but given that I have almost exclusively played with power sword, dueling sword, and relic blade, I’m not really qualified there. But just quickly to get it out of the way:

All Power Melee Weapons: Give them the relic blade heat mechanic, its genuinely perfect.

Edit: Its pretty obvious to me at this point that the ammo issue is really just a issue with the havoc ammo nerf. This is too big of a change from auric to havoc and needs to be rethought. Many more guns would be viable in havoc without becoming OP in auric if this ammo nerf was rethought. So I removed the ammo buff suggestion on bolter, though I think a small buff still would be a good idea for the auto guns as shock trooper gives too much of a bonus for lasguns. Though many weapons effected by the ammo nerf to the point of being useless in havoc, still under perform in auric

Also Ill just talk about buffs for the most commonly used variants so this isn’t 3x longer then it has to be, these same buffs can be adjusted and added to the other variants.

Finally Im no god at the game, I have played a lot during the last few patches and am pretty good generally. But I’m open to hearing what people have to say about these takes.

Oh and if I get any numbers wrong blame gameslantern because I am pulling stats from there and I know some are a little outdated, tabbing around in game is just a little annoying.

Ranged Weapons

Infantry/Braced Autoguns

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Buff armor pen a bit across the board and increase ammo a little. Not being able to do anything to carapace makes all of these compete with the recon las, and recon las has higher consistent DPS plus benefiting from shock trooper makes its ammo about a good 50% more efficient or around there, smashing the ammo of the autoguns, not to mention Infernus stacks that are so useful to finish off enemies in general and add great boss damage and how much Infernus stacks improve ammo use.

Plus just from a lore side of things, getting shot with a physical bullet is going to hurt even if stopped by armor, where as a lasgun shot if absorb by armor will just make you feel a bit warm. So I think this is a nice way to distinguish them.

Also remove all burst fire modes. No one likes burst fire, its objectively useless as it is simply worse in every way to a fully automatic mode.

Vraks Mk V Infantry Autogun

I never see anyone run infantry auto guns so a bigger buff is in order here I think.

Fire Rate: 13.33/s → 16/s
Ammo: 60/600 → 60/900
Carapace Damage: 6 → 40

Agripinaa Mk VIII Braced Autogun

Popular ish if like A- tier choice. I have never seen it seriously ran in havoc though.

Accuracy: 35% smaller spread
Ammo: 50/500 → 60/600
Carapace Damage: 13 → 60

Vigilant Autoguns

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The vigilant autoguns just suck. These are supposed to be DMRs used to blast away elites and whatnot, but they lack the actual damage and do nothing to carapace so they are entirely outshined by the bolter and its not even close. I think their base damage is fine but their headshot bonus should be cranked up A LOT, including against carapace, if you shoot someone in the head with one of these unless its a reaper or crusher they should pop. A DMR is only satisfying to use if it actually one shots, also making them very reliant on headshots is a fun mix-up and makes them more of a side grade to the bolter then anything, higher skill higher reward but also giving up boss damage.

Better sights would also be nice but not mandatory, like a 4x ACOG type scope would feel appropriate.

Graia Mk VII Vigilant Autogun

Flack/Unarmored Headshot: 800 → 1600
Carapace Body: 19 → 150
Carapace Headshot: 44 → 450
Ammo: 25/200 → 25/250

Shredder Autopistol

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I think everyone can agree the autopistol is the laughing stock of weapons currently. Generally buffing its ammo a lot and giving it access to bleed would make it a lot more useful and worth actually considering running as it gives it something unique over the autoguns.

Also some more mobility would be nice, I mean its a tiny little pocked blaster why does it have the mobility stats of a autogun? Giving it better mobility makes it a little addon you could run while using a heavy melee weapons.

Ius Mk IV Shredder Autopistol

Blessings: Add a unique bleed blessing “Shredder” Adds %5-%20 chance to apply 1 stack of bleed per hit.
Ammo: 60/600 → 90/600
Dodge Limit: 4 → 6
Dodge Distance: 0.96 → 1.15
Sprint Speed: 0.8 → 0.96

Helbore

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Now the helbore is probably the best out of the not used at all in havoc ranged weapons. And honestly I think that’s really just because the charge mechanic is very hard to use for a effect worse then plasma gun. Just changing this for a better mechanic is really all we need here. Also a light buff to carapace damage as its supposed to be the hot shot blow through armor lastgun.

Basically I’m trying to make it a more light target focused side grade to the plasma.

Lucius Mk IV Helbore Lasgun

Charged Carapace Damage: 38 → 150
Charge Mechanic: When aiming in activate “charged” mode, in this mode it has heat generation same as the plasma gun and we could give it some of the same heat related blessings the plasma has, though obviously its heat would rise slower. All shots in charged mode would deal the same damage as a fully charged shot does now, and the fire rate would be about the same as charging shots to 75% now.

Infantry Lasgun

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Infantry lasguns have always been decent, but they are held back by their rate of fire and the fact that they are all single fire. I guess this is to distinguish them from auto guns but really it just makes them feel a little clunky. Genuinely just making them full auto and slightly buffing their fire rate is all they would need to be viable enough and compete with the recon las.

Generally guns that are semi auto and don’t kill a elite on a headshot just don’t feel good, at least now shooting them twice just means holding down the trigger rather then needing to click constantly and get carpel tunnel.

Infantry Lasguns

Fire Mode: Semi Auto → Full Auto
Edit: A fire rate bonus to the MK IX is the big thing the others have a fine fire rate and dps but could use a small bump to damage, and maybe lower recoil on the other 2 as well.

Bolter

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So this is maybe a little contentious but I really think veteran and zealot just need different bolters, TLDR explanation: bolter has too much ammo on zealot and not enough on veteran. Ill describe what I would do here, spearhead would stay on veteran and we would also get a “redeemer” that goes on zealot.

Edit: Detailed explanation here: Weapon buff suggestions (Ranged Weapons mostly) - #25 by JDLS

Spearhead Boltgun

Fire mode: Always Semi Auto
Edit: I removed ammo buff, just lower the havoc ammo nerf.

Redeemer

Bullets: Frag Rounds, detonate on impact or after traveling 30ft/10m. Explosion is a 90 degree cone fragment blast equal to a combat shotgun blast, if it detonates on a target then they would take the full damage of the bullet and also the frag blast, if the damage is enough to blow them up then the fragments would penetrate them and hit enemies behind and to their sides, also dealing high stagger in the AOE. (Just lets you gib large hoards or groups of riflemen, maybe stagger gunner groups)
Ammo: 15/100 → 10/80
Unarmored Damage: 608 → 450
Carapace Damage: 290 → 150

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Just to comment on bolters, I can’t agree at all. A Surgical & Shattering Impact bolter is an excellent sniper thanks to its finesse bonuses & that special ultra-fast Surgical. Especially with all the talents a vet has to buff all that + reload if needed. At the same time it also serves as an assault weapon capable of magdumping down groups of elites or really hurt bosses when pressed, unlike any of the other snipers.

That choice of using it as a sniper instead of just always magdumping is precisely what the weapon is balanced around, you can’t just hold LMB all the time and expect to not run out of ammo.

Alternatively, you can switch Surgical for Puncture to make it even way more economic especially against armor. Just 3 shots (or one hipshot & 1 ADS) is enough to kill a crusher between the brittleness & bleeds. No Surgical means it’s a lot faster to use, while a single hip doubletap + brittle & bleed kills most specials & elites. This ofc makes this variation a lot more mobile and quite ammo efficient.

The bolter would absolutely be meta if plasma wasn’t as OP as it is. But as it is, plasma has its ridiculous power, cleave, and yet is one of the simplest & easiest weapons in the game needing no special skills or tricks to use, nor any talents or builds to work well.

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This

I agree with everything said. No need to have two bolters restricted to a class. There are still 2 variants not yet released.
Boltgun are really fine in single shot mode, but absolutely not balanced in auto fire mode.

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Hard agree that the shredder and helbores could use some love.

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To add to what I said…
I think the simple and easy solution is a damage chart different between single shot mode and auto mode.

I proposed also to reduce the ammunitions reserves for this weapon. I can understand that it can disturb…

But Boltgun is clearly not balanced. But only when you use the automatic fire mode.

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The Infantry Lasguns already have high enough RoF. In fact, that’s part of their intrinsic designs in order to differentiate them from Recon Lasguns.

They would, however, GREATLY benefit from being able to continuously fire when you hold down the trigger. The Infantry Lasguns are known to have caused repetitive strain injuries and carpal tunnel inflammations due to their EXTREME reliance on click spam for maintaining decent DPS output. This is more of a QoL issue and not really a balancing one, but it’s FOR SURE worth mentioning.

The Recoil on Infantry Lasguns is also a bit too high, and at times it causes them to feel borderline MISERABLE to use. This is most prominent with the Mk IIb Infantry Lasgun due to its high RoF.

The Mk IX Infantry Lasgun has blatantly lower DPS than the other two Marks and this needs to be rectified as soon as possible.

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Its one of the main reasons I dont use one.

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Yeah, I already put my Mouse through the Arkham Trilogy. I REALLY don’t want to push my luck! :sob::pray:

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Totally agree.
I don’t understand how a laser, so a light emission, can generate a recoil stronger than an autogun.

Agree also.

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I do feel that the Vigilant Autoguns could take a leaf out of the 1/2 Heavy Stubbers’ book in general.

Example: Being able to penetrate Carapace without needing to use Veteran’s +10% Rending Passive would probably be good, as that wouldn’t lead to the Vigilant Autoguns being OP on Vet but would also give Zealots an anti-Carapace option that isn’t either the Bolter or a Handgun.

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I think it and the PG are tricky to balance in a satisfactory way, because they’re supposed to be superior technologies, and the most significant disadvantages are in manufacture and availability.

Given that, I think the game’s major balancing factors need to be in ammo or handling.

For the boltgun, it could be made to have much more recoil in full-auto. Or even a direct hit to hipfire accuracy.
For the PG, players need to be pushed toward charged shots one way or another, so the gun actually over heats and occasionally cooks its user. This is the grimdark future, and that’s what the PG is for.

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I would also accept giving the Bolter back its original 15/80 base Ammo.

Nerf the Cleave on its Uncharged Attacks and then force the player to utilise Charged Attacks in order to penetrate Bulwarks’ Slab Shields. Plasma Guns NEED to be significantly more focused on Charged Attacks than they currently are.

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I also endorse K_D’s suggestions, but I’ve completely given up on the idea that what the lasguns do is emitt lasers.

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But imo it IS balanced. As I said no other sniper can do what the bolter can. No other any weapon in the game - including plasma - can dish out anywhere close to as much damage as a bolter can. But it’s up to the players themselves to control themselves and only use that magdump as a last resort, or when they have extra ammo to spare.

Balance-wise there has to be a price for that power, hence the reload & ammo. If you make the gun or its full auto mode more ammo efficient, then you have to drop that dmg in equal measure to keep it balanced. But what would be the point? We already have plenty of weak full auto guns.

The bolter is a gun that does literally everything. It works on every range from melee to max sniper range. It’s strong as heck, does weakspots & crits, has twice the finesse dmg bonus and way higher accuracy & responsiveness than plasma, it staggers, is fantastic against armor, and it can AoE burst clear everything on-demand including crushers & bosses when pressed. It also has a great suite of blessings, and as a player you have unique control over its economy. Just Puncture lets you down a boss in ~2 mags or less if you just kite & keep the bleed capped for example. The magdump is just extra, an option that’s all.

I don’t mean to insult anyone by this (and this isn’t addressed to you but people in general!), but personally I don’t want the bolter to be reduced to yet another BAG and lose everything that makes it special just bc some players can’t control their trigger fingers. :sweat_smile:

Edit: Also to not get fixated on the bolter, I definitely agree on buffs for at least Helbores & Shredder. Helbores can work but the delayed shots, atrocious switch speed & single target focus in this massive spawn meta just doesn’t work. And the Shredder has arguably been the only genuinely bad gun ever since the Pinning Fire nerf, it really desperately needs a lot of love.

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Let’s say it… For one time, I picked what I consider an OP weapon… it may be a little too much. Let’s say a not balanced weapon.

At first I was using with aiming, so in single shots. It is clearly devastating. You get the precision of a revolver, a little less damages and 15 ammos in your clip instead of 5. You chain headshot that are also one shot kills…
Then I started to use in full auto.
Well, you have so many ammos that, as a zealot, you don’t need to restrain yourself. See these crushers patrol? dead. See these maulers? dead. Oh… a monstrosity. Let’s welcome it with 15 shots…

And that’s the problem.
PG is too strong only for light shots. Boltgun destroy anything in full auto.
How can you compete in term of DPS with these monsters if you use something else? you can’t.
And, I come back here on boltgun, this is because you have plenty of ammos with the boltgun. You have more ammos in a boltgun than in a shotgun or a revolver. But not certainly the same power of destruction.

Players often complain that difficulty is not enough high… at same time they exclusively use DS, PG, Boltgun etc. I rarely see someone using an heavy sword, a catachan sword or an autopistol.

I can agree about this… however balance is totally broken.
As an example, I tested agri and graia autogun (old names) extensively. They totally fail to be at the level of the columnus. Let’s not compare them with a boltgun.

After lot of games on zealot with a boltgun… the difference between boltgun and other good ranged weapons is like using an achlys combat axe and compare it with a relic blade.
You can deal lot of damages, not at the level of the boltgun but still decent. However, to deal such DPS, you will have to play very well. With bolter, you just need to click and maintain LMB.
In other words, Boltgun makes things 10 times easier cause it is really too powerful… this is exactly the same as Relic blade when you compare it to other average melee weapons.

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Ahh I misunderstood you, sorry!

I mean I can well imagine if plasma didn’t exist then the bolter would probably be OP, I agree. Which basically means it is OP already, just overshadowed by plasma.

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Really? Relic Blades are the example that you thought of when it comes to “OP Melee Weapons”? I mean, they’re GOOD but not to a point where they’re OP and need to be nerfed.

I love Relic Blades because of three things:

  1. They’re not OP, let alone oneshotting everything like Duelling Swords.
  2. They’re REALLY fun and engaging.
  3. I only use Two-Handed Weapons whenever possible because I definitely work best with them.

Duelling Swords and Combat Blades are OP, but Relic Blades? They’re fine as they are. Leave them alone, please and thank you.

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Yes this is the example. Cause:

Boltgun is not balanced actually.

DS I agree. Combat blade I totally disagree. The only time someone can deal an insane amount of damages and kill everything is when using it with a shroudfield build. So, a build problem.

Relic Blade are really good. I compare them to Combat Blade. Do I ask a nerf? No. Check all my posts, I have never said this. So you can quit attacking me.
But saying they need a buff? clearly not, this is one of the most powerful weapon of the zealot.
But if you try to say that a combat blade is more powerful than a relic blade… then here I will clearly disagree and by a lot.

Relic blade staggers easily. Deal massive DPS. They make things 10 times easier than an other “average” melee weapon. With a Relic blade, I can deal with mixed hordeS (the S is cause it can be 1 or 10 it doesn’t change the output) easily. Try that with an achlys combat axe (my current favorite weapon)… not the same. Try to fight 15 ragers with a combat axe… you can succeed, but you need to not commit errors.
With a relic blade, 15 dreg ragers is just a breakfast… they just die easily.
That’s why I say things are 10 times easier with a relic blade, cause I can kill anything easily… dreg ragers to crushers.

Also, did you try to play with Achlys Combat axe? and to compare it with a relic blade?
Cause the exact sentence you point is:

I never seen someone else using an achlys combat axe. 2 months I use it, never seen someone else using it. They all pick Rashad and Antax. Easy to understand, they are really easier to handle.
Achlys can be devastating but you really need to train yourself and pay really attention to what you do.
I do like 50 to 58% weakspot hits with achlys. Means I usually kill 3 - 4 enemies at same time. I can deal a lot of damages, but for that, I have to play really better than with a relic blade.
Achlys combat axe relies a lot on heavy hits. In a horde, it can become really fast a nightmare.
And that’s why I say that relic blade make things ten times easier than this weapon…

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Shotguns be like:

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Don’t you dare ruin my favourite vet build!