“what to expect devblog” says this
There’s been some fine-tuning on weapon swaps, but they depend on the weapon’s size and weight. For example, switching between a 2h chainsword and a bolter will not be immediate. Switching to melee should always be instant, while ranged weapons have a “ready-up” time.
The issue is still present but perhaps somewhat lessened in some weapons, we’ll have to see today.
The problem is the fact that there even is a “ready up” time so the problem persists as long as it’s there
I have played in beta where that mechanic was already there and I played on Diff 5 quite a lot by no-life’ing the hell out of close beta. I thought it was bug but if it’s intentional then I want to adress it right now as it was just badly designed, frustrating to play around and also even immersion breaking because why would you rack the slide every single time? However as I said I was sure it was a bug/not finished game thing back then.
Since it has been confirmed by FS that this is an intentional design decision to balance gun play, we can safely say that this is an absolutely moronic way to balance light vs heavy ranged weapons.
First, despite this being anecdotal, genuinely all of the friends I have played with have pointed out that the pointless charging handle animations as making absolutely no sense. I only bring this up because I get the strong sense that other people coming into this game will question why needless animations that don’t adhere from a realism standpoint are impeding the flow of the game. I think the preponderance of threads on this exact topic throughout Closed Beta and now preorder beta evidence that fact.
I mean, if you die because you need to snipe a special and instead get locked into a 3 second animation of fiddling with your gun for no reason, that is just plain frustrating. To answer that with: “Yeah, I know it makes absolutely no sense that you character had to mindlessly fiddle with the charging handle before shooting it, but FS had to find SOMMEE way to balance their game.” It is just bad game design.
There are so many better ways to do this balancing many of which already exist in the game. Alter total ammo capacity. Alter magazine size. Alter reload time. But for the love of the emperor do not destroy the flow of the game with these stupid animations. You generally want players to be able to control for the annoyances of a gun, i.e. long reload, outside of combat situations, you do not want those annoyances, like pointless charging animations, that will be forced to be endured during combat situations.
By changing things like reload time and mag size, you can balance between light and heavy weapons, while keeping gameplay smooth. V2 basically already did this. Darktide needlessly took a step back in this regard.
Yeppers. Honestly, I’d rather they just remove the clunkiness associated with weapon swapping altogether and find other means to balance this. A seasoned Vermintide player is going to be switching weapons on the fly based on the situation. That’s just how it is, hours and hours of game time has developed that kind of reflexive muscle memory. It’s instinctive to automatically swap weapons to eliminate targets amidst a horde rush or when fighting a boss. Forcing a delay in that process will only serve to further impede the game’s flow of action and, at worse, hurt one’s gameplay.
Like you said. There are much better ways to go about this without hurting the gameplay; such as, increasing reload time, decreasing how many shots you can get off, et cetera, et cetera.
What kind of other “balance” would you like?
Slow motion while pulling out a gun? Even longer reloads? Less damage on every gun? Even less ammo in your pockets so the greed for rounds on the ground gets even worse?
How about we address the last point! Isnt it ridiculous that you can just pick up ammo from the ground and it works with your gun? Why wouldn’t it just be second grade garbage? Why isnt it ever booby trapped? Why is a soldier of the empire even allowed to touch such heretical goods in the first place?
Talking “realism” in a WH40k game is nonsense. It works differently. We might aswell be forced to pull off the extra rack to appease the guns machine spirit before firing.
I like the animation that gets pulled off whenever you swap to a weapon, and I think its a genius way that offers another way to balance weapons.
I like how they did it too. Makes you need a dedicated special killer behind you to take care of those specials. Also its a perfect way to balance out smaller long range weapons. Just use las pistol, auto pistol or lasgun if you cant adapt.
It’s strange how Vermintide 2 didn’t have this issue and its gameplay was far smoother to operate compared to Darktide. Indeed, that game featured ranged weaponary and it didn’t force this unwarranted jankiness onto the player. On the contrary it encouraged it, even rewarding the player if mastered. It facilitated the player to: execute different combos with melee and ranged, dodge while weaving different attacks, and react more quickly to high value enemy targets. There’s so much that a skilled player can pull off in tangent of fluid weapon swapping.
Yet, for some reason, we can’t have the same thing here because of obscure reasons? Forgive me, but I find your argumentation against the notion of smoother gameplay to not be very compelling for me. There is no benefit to suffer downgrades for the sake of “balance” - if it gets in the way of fun - this is neither a competitive player versus player game nor an “e-sports” title to warrant such silly design choices.
Maybe I’m delusional but I don’t think it gets in the way of fun. Smaller ranged weapons can still be switched with very little downtime and the bigger ones just force you to disengage. IMO it’s not so much whether or not one system is better than the other, but just that they are different. In Darktide it seems weapons are simply “heavier” in design and with ranged dodging penalty and the fact that you can’t block with a ranged weapon, means you are commiting yourself to potentially be more vulnerable but also potentially more lethal whenever you make the swap.
But then again I’m a Vet player so ofc I like the ranged combat…
Bump, I wholeheartedly agree with the weapon switching animation being overbearing.
If the point is balance, then wouldn’t it be easier to just have them flick the safety off on the draw? Rather than forcing us to watch the same racking animation time and time again (which gets old and annoying very fast).
Forcing the player to watch the constant re-racking of their weapon (which is particularly bad with the Helbore Las Rifles switch) is just not fun, it ruins immersion and makes dealing with special enemies all the more tedious from an actual gameplay perspective.
Melee is already very powerful for dealing with anything up close, so why don’t we get equal power when dealing with distant enemies? Multiple times I’ve had to deal with Snipers and had to first deal with a crowd of poxwalkers entirely, before I’ve been able to take the shot, simply because the other team-mates were ALSO dealing with melee enemies.
In situations like that it just feels bad, and enemies seem to lunge so far with their swings that dodging back and switching will almost always get you punished during the animation.
It’s not fun, and as I stated before, if the point is balance, then it can be done in a much more immersive and enjoyable way.
More recoil on heavy weapons, the BoltGun’s recoil doesn’t really feel proportionate for point-shooting for example. I would accept it having a lot more if It was equipped faster.
And on the topic of reloading, as arcadey as the game is it really needs differentiation between the reloads.
Having 14 of the 15 rounds in your mag, then reloading and re-racking your gun makes no sense and is simply another issue with immersion-breaking animations. You should be rewarded for ammo efficiency with that one extra round in the chamber, not punished with a long reload.
The animation work is great, and I get that they want to show them off.
But as it is, they’re showing them off too much, to a point where it’s taking away from the enjoyment of the game.
It’s a PvE game, not PvP, the guns don’t need to have 2 second equipping animations every time to ‘make it fair’
If anything, the game is already quite unfair because of them taking so long.
They need to be changed.
i dont understand the problem , it sounds like you just want it all and are complaining there is a limit.
a different animation to show the readying phase? i would like a more clear visual reference as to when the phase ends and some better input buffering,
if you had taken a pistol or combat shottie you wouldnt have this issue, you choose a heavy weapon but dont want to pay the price of that extra firepower.
i think your assumptions off , its not fair its just different weapons they have different uses. this is a clever idea a way to keep differnet weapons viable and distinct in a way we dont normally see.
its not V2 its a new game theres an adjustment period , wrinkles to be ironed out so to say. but if you just want v2 . it does already exist.
I think it all boils down to a lack of options. While you are swamped with pox walkers, you can only power through with melee.
So of you don’t Run the hord clearer melee build you are probably dead in this case, so bad luck can just end a run.
Most in this thread are probably playing vet or zel, because those two are affected most by this.
And in my opinion not the ranged weapons are the problems, but the nades. It ist cool how you can “aim” a nade, but sometimes you Just want to tap G and get the nade out, to get some space going and have the time to tap that elite or get into a better Position and effectively use your ability.
Psyk and ogryn have this “knock Back” in their abilities. So they probaply don’t have that much issue with the weapon swap speed. Because F, Grenadier gauntlet and the Sniper goes splat.
It not only makes no sense from a real weapon stand point, the weapon is already loaded and ready, it’s just dumb af
for the people here agreeing that it’s okay for balancing, just wait until you have an empty autogun but you can’t switch to melee because you keep getting stun locked by enemies hitting you and you are stuck in the racking animation over and over
that shouldnt be happening, swapping to mellee should cancel that , i can instantly swap to melee there is a small animation but the block is available instantly at any point during my bolt gun ready phase.
what i was supporting was the delay the other way swapping to a ranged weapon incurring a delay based on weight its great!
the delay is a penalty but its allowed them to go a bit overboard on those heavy weapons and thats what i like that bolter is just nutso fun and teh cost for these clearly broken op weapons. a weakness a good deal to me
How was it complaining there’s a limit? you didn’t seem to actually understand my post at all.
I stated I would be happy with a lot more recoil on the heavier weapons in exchange for not having to watch them re-rack constantly and pull me out of the moment.
The Inf Lasguns for example feel like they’re in a good spot, when you pull them out and flick the switch it’s pretty snappy and it makes sense because they’re laser weapons, you’re turning them on.
But they’re arguably more powerful than Bolters as a result, simply because they’re faster.
Ballistics all have this problem, it doesn’t make sense and it’s Immersion breaking. I can deal with the length, but looking beyond the frustration of having to wait to deal with long distance specials and that it feels clunky. The problem is the immersion, and even if the safety animations aren’t as long, as I said I would accept them having a lot more recoil in exchange.
Saying “Take x different gun” is cope, almost a pointless argument to make in this situation and all you’re doing is making excuses for something that makes the game annoying. Taking a shotgun neuters you as Sharpshooter as well because you’re the designated long range special killer, not to mention maybe people just want to use their favorite guns.
When a lasgun is a preferable choice to a Boltgun in 90% of situations, it needs some tuning.
your not forced to do it lots of weapons do swap instant your complaining that you cant have the biggest hardest hitting weapon and have it behave like a small fast one, ie theres a limit.
actually i just disagreed with you.
and that is normally how they do it, i understand, im sayin i prefer this way, they have given it a entirely new issue rather than gimp its rof accuracy recoil or damage we havea real for eg bolt gun that absolutely brings the fury of the emperor. and the cost is instead the weight. i think its brilliant idea.
exactly! you see you get it. they have balanced it in a new and interesting vector. that lasgun is an excellent wepon even though shot for shot its weak to a bolter, see it works!
yeaah immersion, you regen bullet wounds, respawn if you die, magical fairies load wasted ammo out of one mag into the next but its a heavy weapon taking time to get ready thats a step to far.
accept your opinionis enough you dont have to make up reasons you just dont like the choice they have made and thats fine.
yes but not two paragraphs ago you said yourself
yes making a second mistake taking a shotgun as a long ranged weapon wont fix the bolters issues but as you said the lasgun is your answer. you see you know how to cope.
source? personally ive had no issues.been using one every game since i got it. this is your experience not reality and whats wrong with that? why does a boltgun have to be king? why cant the trusty old las be the right choice?
You’re still not understanding, an animation taking you out of the game is significantly different to the fact you can heal.
Again it’s a matter of the weapons feeling good, which a lot do not right now :B
Saying “Take the lasgun” is more cope when someone wants to use the Boltgun from a sheer ‘it’s fun to shoot’ standpoint.
I will refer you to this post, as it’s already explained all of my complaints plus more.
clearly. i dont recall saying that though
do you get the weight is a balance mechanic? if they give us the ability to swap straight to the bolter they are going to have to heavily nerf it at the same time?
i get you might not like the mechanic or the way it feels but i dont see how its cope or wrong.
to me its a clever and great way of allowing diff power levels in the weapons.
Look dude, the length of draw, I can deal with it in-game, I have been, that doesn’t change how awful it feels to play with. Especially when your character lumbers around with it as if there’s not an enemy about to snipe him in the fore-head or a huge group of lasgunners that have just rounded a corner.
CONSTANTLY having to watch the gun brought up into my face, racked and redeployed gets annoying.
As a gun guy IRL, all I can do is count how many rounds I’ve ejected for no reason when the runs are over. (It’s usually in the range of 100, sometimes more, which also wastes 150 seconds of time)
It’s extremely awkward when someone gets pounced, and you have to spend half an hour drawing your weapon as you’re moving to them, just so you can shoot a dog and help them up.
It’s just not fun having to watch your buddy get mauled and not be able to do anything because your character is re-racking a gun that already has a round in the chamber.
Being able to animation cancel more consistently, having some more… urgency behind your characters action so you can actually help downed allies if you’re not in their immediate vicinity.
The fact you have to do it every single time, just gets frustrating.
You can like it, that’s fine, I don’t care.
But again, it can be done a LOT better.
Keep the damage, lower the ammo, add more recoil, whatever.
the length of the drawing animation is not the way it should be done as it gets people killed in situations that require URGENCY. (Again, “take the Lasgun” is a garbage excuse when you already have a different weapon equipped and every weapon should be viable)
You’re ready, you’re staring at your buddy getting slapped around in the distance, but your character takes their time drawing their weapon like they don’t give a damn.
I will reiterate, it’s a PvE game, one where even some of the bad weapons have long draw times too, and this can get your whole team wiped unfairly if there’s a very unfortunate combo of Adds.
When you get into difficulties 4 and 5, that draw time is nothing but a detriment, and saying ‘take the lasgun’ is such a weak, sad excuse when sometimes you either don’t have a decent one on hand, or you just don’t like the Lasguns.
People want to take the guns they like, and if certain guns are just ‘better’, it’s extremely demotivating and will turn people off playing.
Adding the animation adds a high skill ceiling to certain weapons, yes.
But it also makes them almost a detriment to take for modes that have friendly fire, and that throw constant hordes at you in combination with the director deciding that you need to deal with 10 specials at once.
Example, As veteran, you have your gun unequipped, you use your ult, and your character draws the gun, RACKS IT AGAIN, wasting a quarter of your ult already, and THEN you can fire.
Like, dude. The racking animation is fine, but not when your weapon is ALREADY loaded.
if you’ve holstered your gun, or you’ve had to switch to melee, I understand if it would require a Rack when you draw it and hadn’t finished reloading it yet.
But you shouldn’t be punished for already having ammo in the Chamber.
That equip-time could be half the length and it would still keep the flow, as it is right now everything feels sluggish say for a few specific weapons. Cause spending that 1.5 - 2 seconds drawing and racking your gun, just to have an Ogryn walk in front of you and ruin your shot at a Special in that time is infuriating.
A lot of the issues that arise are totally out of your control, you can’t counter the draw time by ‘playing better’, you can’t predict the future and realize, “Oh I’ll need my gun in exactly 2 seconds”
And sometimes it’s that 2 seconds that get you pounced by a buggy ass Dog, or Pox Burst, Or charged by a mutant that can drift corners, or generally forced into a situation that you need to switch BACK to melee to get out of.
This is on FATSHARK as a design decision, one they have failed to implement correctly.
Again, it, is not, fun.
Fun > Everything.
well a lot of that is just repeating you not liking the weapon being balanced in the way it is, which i get thats fair enough.
but if your going to call it bad or wrong you need to give us something objective. all your subjective complaints could be flipped around.
how is it unfair? you know the weapon has this attribute its not a surprise no rules are changed its annoying to make the wrong choice it happens to us all but i dont see how its unfair.
thanks! i get it could be done in the way you prefer but how is it better? it would be worse for me.
see this is what i really dont want, to neuter everything down to the same base lasgun level. this is exactly why i like this system it gives another paramater to use in balance to keep more things viable.
sorry ill try and be big and strong. so rng being bad to you means a balance mechanic is wrong… so if you have good rng its fine? i do agree the shop is a poor way to do loot.
and i think you know this but lasgun is just an example of fast weapon there are quite a lot to choose from.
id back you here though id agree the vet ult should skip it.
sure huge amount of stuff is out of our control thats the game isnt it. seening what the AI throws and using the tools you have to deal with as best you can, and i think youd be surprised with what people can predict and anticipate with practice , there is always a lot of informatin being fed to us about what is about to happen we always need to know where to be in 2 seconds time .
Well yes it is a design choice, that choice has been implemented correctly. it is functioning as intended you not liking it doest mean its broken , the part i agree on is they could of made a bespoke animation for the readying rather than just repeating the load animation. and a clear indicator of the phase would be good.
for you , thats as subjective as me liking it, well liking what it let them do the weapons other characteristics.
yay we agree on something