Wait, aren't we the good guys?

Hey, whoa now, the High Elves only splintered because Malekith was too good of a leader and hero. He gave up the throne knowing it would be the honorable thing to do and then swore himself into service to the new king as a warlord despite being vastly more capable. As a soldier he went across the world, befriended the dwarfs, smashed evil left and right, and then finally stumbled into the frozen Northlands. He found the Circlet of Iron which twisted and demented him via the secrets of Chaos; until he stumbled across that damnable artifact, the High Elves would be the most revered and capable race on the globe!

Needless to say, I still agree with all of your assessment, as usual @LordRhinark. I think it’s a really cool universe they’ve built for Warhammer; it’s served as an inspiration for half of my villains/heroes because it is such a great example of good and evil and how, to the people within the world, the lines are not at all blurred when they are, to us, very blurred.

I love Chaos in all of its entirety because, at first glance, every single follower of Chaos is a deranged nut-job who is a cultist in every way. If you look more closely, the beauty of those villains comes out! Archaon is literally the servant of the gods. The Empire, and Sigmar in turn, are followers of a different religion… that’s the only difference between them. They are fighting a holy war where one side has a Messiah/Prophet, The EverChosen, who is heralding his gods and their will. He is blessed with near eternal life, cosmic wisdom, and penultimate fighting prowess… does that not sound like a Paladin from any epic story we’ve read?

The rest of their servants/warriors might seem brutish, but isn’t that mostly a choice of colors? If they all took the time to polish their armor and make it silvered/gold, would they not look heroic? With the exception of the Chaos Beasts of Nurgle, most of them aren’t really that unsightly… and even then, that’s because they were created to be ugly to us as humans.

2 Likes

Yeah, you’ve got it pretty right on the forces; Lizardmen are also in the Order faction, to an extent that they eschew morality entirely in the name of order and the greater good (which sounds like Tau, but there’s really no secret dark side; they’re kinda brutally direct instead). The Tomb Kings are also . . . kinda? . . . Order. They’re also more “grey” than other factions because they have no interest in the outside world, only their own lands, and they want them to be ORDERLY. They can, however, behave in what we consider virtuous or evilly within that context, so again - complex.

@TheScarecrow777, I can’t recommend any 40k books because I’m not into it, but for Fantasy, I highly recommend the Sigmar Legends Trilogy. It sets up the Empire and the setting quite well, along with why Sigmar is so awesome.

2 Likes

Heard that the horus heresy stuff is really good so might be a decent starting point. I personally haven’t read any of them so can’t be more specific than this.

2 Likes

I dunno if Chaos is really just “another point of view” - and I don’t mean morally, but because the Chaos Gods themselves are suggested to be born from the feelings of mortals, like the effect of their psyches on the Warp.

They’re not really eldritch at all, they’re extremely knowable in their motives (even Tzeentch, who is just kind of about crazy gambits), because their motives are informed by the thoughts and feels of mortals. They even have good sides! Enjoying anything is in the realm of Slaanesh, even if you don’t go overboard with it, and we all do things we enjoy. Yeah, s/he would have us go until we’re twisted, but enjoying things in a healthy way isn’t bad. Disease is a thing everyone fears and thinks of, especially in the Fantasy world, hence why he exists - he also represents the natural cycle of death, decomp, and rebirth, though, so that is also good.

It’s nice and complex, but the Chaos Gods also . . . kinda . . . give in to the worst aspects of it. Nurgle wants everything to rot. Khorne wants everyone to fight ALL THE TIME, and so on. They aren’t BALANCED, and their ways can only really “be” inside the Warp. In the material world, they’re immensely destructive because material reality doesn’t allow for these two-dimensional lives.

3 Likes

thx! i’ll give those a look

I don’t believe they are born of mortal feelings (at least I’m fairly sure they’re not). It is the will of the Chaos Gods to wipe the slate clean every so often: hence the End-Times. They existed long before mortality and continue to exist long after; they’re only considered non-eldritch in the sense that we haven’t made up any more emotions for them, but they are truly mystical creatures.

Cthulu wouldn’t be elditch, either, if we looked at him in the same sense.

The Chaos Gods are just gods. I think they are deferred to as evil and depicted as evil in the sense that they are supposed to be a satirical foe while the “Forces of Good” are meant to be righteous, fighting the evils and holding them at bay. Ultimately, however, the Forces of Good are inherently more flawed than the Forces of Chaos. The Warriors of Khorne are 100% unified in all causes (this could also be because I haven’t read any book/pulled up an article that says otherwise, but I’d love to see more lore so if I’m wrong here please correct me); can you say the same of all followers of Sigmar? I think it was brought up earlier that the Witch Hunters are damnably evil; Slaanesh would never do that to her own people.

The Nurgle Family is one family. If everyone were Nurgled, there would be peace. The Khornate Berzerkers are only maddened because Khorne blessed them with knowledge they struggle to understand/quantify. It’s all a matter of perspective, in the end… as humans, we innately want to believe that the humans are the good guys and that following a religion of righteousness, heroism, and preventing “evil” is what we are all about. It might be that I am a raving madman with a bias but I like to believe that Chaos is vastly underestimated in purpose and action.

In the end, the point of the Empire is to display how absolutely trash humanity is by blowing all of our past out of proportion (the witch hunts, the religious fanaticism, the self-confidence). By comparison, the single-mindedness of Chaos is… cathartic. Their “giving into the worst of it” seems like something written in to make them appear evil because the series needed a proper villain, but they are certainly necessary. Maybe it’s just me :wink:

At least in 40k the chaos gods are literally born from mortal believes and feelings. Slaneesh was literally birth from depravity and excess the eldar were having which also pretty much destroyed their civilization.
Personally i’ve always thought the mechanics behind the chaos gods were very similar between fantasy and 40k.
End times itself is just an occurrence when the 4 gods actually bother to do something together instead of constantly vying for the supremacy.

1 Like

Chaos worshippers aren’t really unified at all, they’re always attempting to backstab each other. Read any story about them, and their leader is always having to fend off challenges and attempts to overthrow their power. Daemons seem fairly united, because they are simplistic beings for the most part who share a common goal, but the human followers seem all like jerks.

My point about eldritch-ness is that the Chaos Gods have understandable motives. Cthulu, we might go “oh it wants to eat our souls”, but we don’t understand why. Khorne just wants more fighting, Nurgle more disease, and so on. It’s not just their actions we understand, but their actual motivations.

1 Like

It makes sense that they are backstabbing each other for power, rather I meant to say that they all share a common goal (poorly worded point in my prior post, my bad).

As far as the motivations: aren’t their motivations to kill all of mortal-kind? I thought each of those little things was to benefit the time their champions would “clean house” and stomp out the light of life.

I think we are only viewing them as “non-eldritch” because we know what’s coming. Were the story written about Cthulu, where we see that (at the end of it all) he wants to destroy earth… well, yeah, of course he loses his mysticism. Any time we know the whole story the enemy loses their mysterious nature. I’d imagine that Khorne doesn’t just want people to fight… I’m guessing he’s got a reason that they’re fighting.

@hgjw I did not actually know that (I’ve got a pretty serious lack of knowledge about 40K). Then how is it that they persisted between eras? The End-Times was a pretty definitive carpet bombing of the mortal races. (I’m asking very literally, I genuinely don’t know)

At the start warp was apparently just calm place but eventually probably trough war and other things more raw emotions started flowing trough it creating beings we know as daemons and eventually the chaos gods. to quote wiki here because it explains it far better than i ever could.

" In the early history of the galaxy, the powers of the Warp had yet to form into distinct, intelligent entities. At this time, the emotions of sentient mortals flowed and ebbed as water does in a stream. As the intelligent mortal species grew and prospered, so did the strength of their emotions. Eventually, the gods grew to such a point where they could act independently of the general flow of emotions and thus became the Gods of Chaos. They reached into the dreams of mortals and demanded praise and servitude in order to increase their own power, as the more one emotion is exhibited (in both thought and action) by a large group of sentient beings in the physical universe, the stronger that Chaos God becomes."

You can read more about it from there or watch some lore videos on youtube (there are plenty of) but basically they did not just born in an instant rather trough the raw emotions the mortal races actually gave birth to them.

End time sure was a carpet bombing of mortal races that is true however you also have to consider it was the first time in ages when the 4 brothers just decided to do something together instead of just vying for the ultimate power from one a other. This is even referenced in the Vermintide 1 opening.

Obviously i’m not expert on these things just been reading about these when i’m bored so definitely look some of the more established content if you are interested in this.

2 Likes

To elaborate on @hgjw’s explanation:
In the war between the 40k Old Ones (those all looked like Slann, but corporeal) and the Necrontyr (the ‘living’ Necrons) and their sub-wars (the Old Ones created the Krorks, later Orks to fight the Necrontyr and the C’tan, Eldar were also involved) there was so much war and death and overall chaos that the Warp became the Warp. Through the general strife of that era (approximately 40 million years before 40k) the so-called ‘Realm of Souls’, which was not divided in the Chaos Realms, became so twisted and broken beyond recognition that demons formed and over time conglomerated into the Chaos gods. There is more to it, and to the war itself, but that would stretch this comment out by quite a margin.

Oh, and to @TheScarecrow777:
If you want to pick up on something 40k, i would highly recommend the Ghaunts Ghosts series by Dan Abnett. I read it and am a huge fan. Can’t recommend more, what i most like is his love to detail and overall storytelling. It’s about a Guard regiment, which is always appreciated, as most 40k books are about Space Marines. I did not read the Horus Heresy books but heard similar good things about it. Dan Abnett also wrote books about the Inquisition, and i’m about to start them, might get back to you to give my critique on them.

4 Likes

Thanks! I ordered the Horus Heresy, will look into Ghaunts Ghosts, just the title alone sounds badass.

1 Like
Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu