Veteran Tree's - Weak Talents?

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
44

the meta is selfish because the game is cleverly design to split you off from your team regardless of your will, i choose to dive into bomber flames and gas to reunite with my team every single time that i can, and it pays off 90% of the time

but no, no my point is purely mathematical, every single toughness point that goes over your cap is value wasted, this is why some players might be trapped into leaning towards talents like born leader and charisma hoping to get some value off it

but from my experience either in malice or havoc 40 there is no amount of babysitting that can prevent your team mates from falling in the very moments you actually need all 4 to be alive

that comes down solely to the player quality, to the point that i’ve noticed players being more reactive to danger when they are not shielded by a psyker’s bubble or a zealot’s chorus

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45

Thanks for the reply. You operate off purely mathematical statistics and apply to gameplay. Id rather operate off pure gameplay, and any maths is just there.

I choose this because the level of skill is very bad now and you cant rely on anythingother than your gamesense. Saying that, its a game. If I have teammates that ARENT bad, I know that Im continuously pumping toughness. I’d rather have that than the alternative, being 50% suppression which, Im sure youre aware, Braced/SMG suppression builds arent exactly utilized in the game let alone Havoc. And the base dmg increase for 5s on my Shout, that damage isnt gonig to carry the team, as you say, neither is the toughness regen. But I pick the regen. IMO, this is a playstyle choice rather than definitive ‘mathematics’ which leaves a LOT to be desired let alone open to severe manipulation. I can watch my teammates and know what kind of players they are, instinctively. I can make a build that ticks the boxes fr the difficulty and weapons I CHOOSE to use, but the maths of that will stay the same regardless of a teammate going down every big fight or not. I can clock that Dagger/Chorus Zealot and if he walks away from 3-4 pox in the backline everytime I know hes gonig to spend all his time frontlining and leave if he dies. Because thats the type of player he is, more often than not.

Longshot isn’t weak, its a useful pathing tool that has MANY synergies with certain builds and playstyles even at Havoc40. Which is ABSOLUTELY NO BADGE OR MEASUREMENT. Maths may say it is, simply playing the game clearly shows its not, despite one being objectively provable, and the other not at all.

Selfish players simply lose more games unless they are in a premade, which is a moot point. I can’t count the number of times I get an ogryn coming back to me because if hes gonig to ignore the chaff/not create space on the Psyker or me, Im not going to prioritise taking rdps off him. Alternatively, if they do these things occaisionally, I’ll enable them to yolo frontline. I’ll happily wipe for this with a bad team, as rank means nothing to me but playing the game with ‘good teammates’ does. Alongside simply playing the GAME.

Thisisn’t an eSports, its not even competitive pve. Maths has no place unless you enjoy running a build that isnt yours but statistically performs, even if you as a player cannot leverage any of it.

Staying in Coherency is a T2 lesson, not Havoc.

Maths is misleading when using it to order anything largescale.

46

to my pov you are doubling down on your team mates by investing in those talents, i think of value as if i was giving money to strangers, if i help a team mate just for him to get downed
30 seconds after i’ve made a bad investment in the end

i’d rather have put that extra perk point (we talking charisma) into something offensive that would help me doing my veteran duty to target the highest threats (and look better in the scoreboard as a bonus)

when i use small guns i’m fine with suppressing my enemies by just hitting them, they stop from setting up to fire at your if you do it with the right timing, i did play a cuple of games with a grey kantrael IIb (MG IV) to prove a point, and just so happened that i didn’t even considerate taking the suppression talent over the 10% extra damage for 5 seconds after the ability activation (god that was awfull to phrase)

ye its fine, i incude that on my builds, but its my tax for volley adept not the toughness perk haha

i don’t think i’m better than anybody, i’m just giving you my 1600 levels veteran pov, but i’m always spying on other people’s build to see if they are doing better than mine

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47

I abhor the ‘value’ mentality so Its clear we’re not debating ingame mechanics (Although Im realyl trying) likewise I play a team classbased pve coopgame for the teamwork aspect. I dont see why you wouldnt. If you want to show how good you are, 1 playing a pvp game and 2 play a pvp game that has a scorebaord. A pve scoreboard to me is really laughable.

Yeh, I dont think you understand, even though Ive said, that Longshot really benefits ADS/Precise builds. It doesn’t benefit Boltguns bois, which I know you’re a fan of.

I didnt say you think you’re better than anyone, whatsoever. My Vet is around 1400 and I play all classes, since open beta. You can’t really spy builds if you cant see synergies is my point I guess. IE a Kantrael player is going to be headshotting most things, so they’ll get a lot more use out of Longshot (which is multiplied by all Damage sources…) + Exhilirating Takedown combo than a Boltgunner who favors magdumping.

I dont play Boltgun, its not my style and I don’t enjoy the weapon itself, but I’'ve played Kantraels in 40’s and with a team functioning as a team should, its quite easy to make work. This is my point. The Ogryn and Zealot can focus Elites and enemy Ogryns much easier if they don’t have a ton of ranged/special pressure to worry about and are having their toughness pumped by constant shouts. A boltgunner simply, factually, mathematically, isn’t gonig to be getting the same value, because their Ammo is worth more even IF they were to kill all Specials somehow. This is why I abhor the ‘value mentality’. Not everyone can leverage it but many speak of it to sound ‘science-y’.

So basicly we’re back at the start, you have the same opinion on the talent desptie being made aware of other build and damage synergies with it, because its not your style, which is and was my point.

I’m off to enjoy a few Havocs with a Kantrael I think xD

48

all this is fascinating to me, i come from 2000+ hours on my bolter and for that i’ve just a different pov from yours, its the things that makes you appreciate the depth of the game

although despite you building for your team i think i have a borader pov on teamwork than you, i see teamwork on all things, if the shroud zealot stays alive enough to solo clutch and rescue his team mate i see teamwork in that, its just a different kind

when the psyker drop his shield to keep his blaze stacks 20+ i see more teamwork in it than one that blinds his team mates spamming his dome, baiting them into hanging around an area that quickly turn out to be a trap, or a misposition for the backliners

i do come from that world, left 4 deads like these are the only pve games i play really, i’m a league of legends player, if my character has high HP stats i use it even if it looks like i took damage on the outside, i know i’ve just traded my health to push my character to his limits and cleared the danger faster

there is nothing selfish on sacrificing your safety to ditch more damage, the enemies you are killing are all possible threats to your weak link

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49

Indeed, through discussion we have worked out WHY we think different talents are mroe or less valuable. I enjoy ‘carrying’ my team through ‘stealing’ as many specialist kills with my Kantrael or Recon and converting that to pre-fight, fight, or clutch Shouts. I can do so with a Lasgun because it just deletes specialists almost instantly. Longshot helps in that, and all the other damage multipliers stack on top resulting in less shots on the specialist so I can get back to ‘playing the game’.

I don’t build for my team. My build synergizes with it, and my playstyle. I think you’re getting lost again.

What you listed is just playing the game with a ‘team work element’ tacked o nto delude that individualm or his group if they are of the same mindset, that theyre ‘teamworking’. Thats not teamwork I’m afraid. If the Zealot coudlve made better choices in his playstyle that histammates wouldnt have gone down i nthe first place, its actually toxic at worst and incompetant at best. But since that what his build does, I’d be a hypocrite to judge, wouldnt I? I think certain things should take precedence, and they do, i ndetermining a good player.

I see that the Psyker can choose to drop or not drop his shield. Its not up to him if his tammates to blob in it and die like lemmings. It might better todro pit, than not.

Thanks for explaining your background. I have played eSports and played vs TCM (team coolermaster) at iSeries. I have played in the premier UK counterstrike leagues before that, and have not only scrimmed, but been in a team with one of HeatoN’s cs 1.3-6 buddies. Sadly, I never got invited to their games.

I also understand teamwork, what it takes, and what it isnt. And the carying levels of it, from none to basicly professional (I would be ‘semi-pro’, to use the cliche) I’d like to share it with people, but they refuse to listen. Thats not on me, its on them. They have a spreadsheet they got off reddit that said maths is good, I have experience of matching reactions, strategy and timings with some of the (old) best.

Its good to discuss on Forums. I dont expect multiple teammates to have the equivalent teamwork of coordinating 10 grenades in 1-2 seconds to cover a bombsite, entry, and taking up positions intrinsically (the community in online games that tried to teach that to the next generation died out a long time ago because they wouldnt listen and perceivied some sort of ‘class’ thing) but I do expect them to kindly leave me specials where possible, letting them focus on other things and not draw their heavy stubber so they can keep whacking stuff to protect others who dont have as much aoe or Impact stat, so they can in turn help him do his stuff. To me its more than commonsense, its a basic part of the game. But as I said, sadly thats not how it is because feelings. If people embraced different methods, theyd learn more and have a better time.

Also I have far too many hours in Killing Floor, the best coop horde shooter by far (Sorry Emperor, it cant be replaced)

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50

Especially good point looking at Exhilarating takedown now, talents should feel natural and not forcing into unnatural play to utilize(becoming my new stance on talent designs since some have mentioned here and before).

Only place I’d think this talent would make sense is if your in a shoot out to regen or trying to kill priority targets at a range…while taking damage close… which is a dangerous game to play.

51

Thats because in your head your thinknig that to be ‘efficient’ you need to actively useit.

If you are a normal Vet who can aim, its not a minigame. Do you see the dichotomy? Do you see why this is a terrible way to balance?

52

Part of the mini game is you’ve lost toughness so now you need to switch to range and headshot in a scenario where your toughness is down and your surround by the things that dropped your toughness… unless it was a shoot out scenario. Similarly catch a breath would not be helpful in such a scenario forcing vets to skip these and rely on shout more.

53

You don’t play to utilize the talent, the talent is utilized when you are playing. Theres a difference and while you may try to hijack that fact with ‘well i think its a minigame’. Youre trying to make a square fit a round hole. Youre trying to justify something that only exists to you. You don’t actively use Exhilirating Takedown. If you play like a wimp to use Catch a Breath you are doing your team a disservice, its for topping toughness up between fights/before entering and to slightly helps vs ranged.

The mini game element you are stating exists, when it categorically doesnt doesnt, is getting a headshot. This is what you mean by ‘minigame’. Your builds either gets Headshots on Vet, or it doesnt. Thisis basic gameplay, not a mini game. You are conflating the 2 to suit your proposals, which in turn only beneft the way you think rather than the game. I honestly think people with this arguement use it to alleviate their skill/lack thereof in certain areas, but I wont go into meta balancing here.

Catch a breath is Garbage when you could picka meaningful talent like Charismatic or get Back in the Fight. If you can’t stay in Coherency to regen your toughness holding block, its a simple crutch talent to topup toughness when other means arent available. Charsmatic will also give you more ammo and more TDR radius on top of more toughness regen from being able to stay in 4 Coherency much more easily. Im also bias as I go out of my way to target SPECIALS asap, which means having to go out of position to stop the nade/trap/dog launching. This is getting into skill and meta balance however.

Passive toughness won’t save you. We all know that and the various excuses are quite funny. Both these picks will complement certain builds and certain playstyles different, just like Longshot, which if you are prioritizing Specials like you should be and 95% Vets dont, you’d be able to tell the difference on any weapon that Isnt Bolter/Pg. The different between Catch a Breath and Exhilitrating takedown is skill (aim), Lasgun type vs Boltgun type builds and playstyles. Catch a Breath is easier, and requires no thinking ( the mini game to use your terms is not getting hit in melee. Thats literally the actual game. Not a minigame. I can’t believe this is the input for balancing Havoc, and is why I will offer counter percpective). Catch a Breath is up constantly when the ‘minigame isnt deactivated’ aka you’re playing Darktide… Its therefore better for Boltgun/PG type builds which are more susceptible to Ranged chipp damage becauese, get this, They dont benefit as much from Exhilirating takedown as much as the other Vet weapons. Funny that. Almost like Somethnig is balanced around a mechanic you are refusing to accept and all builds and weapons have their pros and cons. Hmmm.

Exhilirating takedown is never on or off, its dependent on headshots. Thats it. Its not a mini game to get headshots. Its playing the actual game. Stop conflating the 2 to suit your balance ‘needs’ or come up with a better arguement. The drawback that it requires aim is rewarded with 30% TDR. I personally don’t think about this, its up, or its not. I’m not stupid enough to micro headshot management intentionally to keep 30% TDR which isn’t much. You die in Havoc because your teams actual coherency is bad and you’re overrun, or you get oneshot by being out of position, or a boss rampages you. Also, ET allows you to better judge how much dps you can do in relation to how many headshots you can get. I know if I’ve picked a few shooters off 9with headshots) and there a shotguner blob or Gunners, I can more safely (or not depending on AIM) remove them from the field. Again, balanced by what my team is donig and if they are enabling this, or I have to go help them out. This is the teamwork dynamic and it works both ways for each of the 4 players in a match AT ALL TIMES. Catch a Breath requires no input, just ‘dont get hit’ in which case its a useless minigme. See what I did there? See how silly it is to balance around this.

You say that its a dangerous game to dodge melee hits while shooting but that is the point of Vet in many builds/playstyles to utilize Reciprocity and why they get multiple sources of Stamina regen and blocknig is so effective in general. The skill is in judging what you can dodge. Thisis individual skill AND situational awareness to get the most out of Reciprocity. Is intuitiveness rearding team and the AI director also a mini game? What isnt a minigame? This logic is beyond pervasive. On the other hand, if you have aware teammates that can identify you are killing specials whe they come into LoS for your team, during a melee, therfore regularly reducing your Shouts cd, they actively support you. Which defines this as a player issue, not a statistical ‘data’ issue.

You are lobbying for something that works perfectly well and synergises with vets kit AND other people enjoy. Because ‘data’ which can very easily be manipulated.

Don’t get me started n using scorebaord examples to balance. Thats de facto not how balancing is or should be done. Good game testers are becoming harder to get data from for Devs, but that doesn’t mean outsorucing to community is a good idea except for Obvious things. Longshot cannot be statistically measured, nor player utilization. The ONLY question in this vein regarding balancing is not of any mathematical pivot point, but who should the game be balanced for, mediocre or higher skill. How much can be utilized and leveraged appropriatly thus defining the metagame. The current metagame is for most players to drop them melee weapon for 5 secodns to take a special kill. Instead, for thse 5 secodns, why don’t they go cover someoen who can kill the specialist more efficiently AND have a good chance of it enablnig another Shout for +50 shield. The scoreboard is the answer, and people who are not teamplayers. And that has always been the issue with community balance. I want and Need vs what actually is balance. What mechanics. What ceiling to base it on, etc etc.

When balanced around mediocre knowledge, we risk losing the nuance that contributes to making this rgeat game infinitely replayable as long as the playerbase understand how other peoples classes and builds work.

54

Your not already started? You should of made your point with less words it was TLDR i tried…

If talent provides toughness you play with it for when you need toughness. I’m shooting and getting headshots I’m not doing that when im loosing or lost my toughness I’m addressing the priority threat most often in melee.

55

Okay, you just proved why community balance is awful. People wont listen to counterproposals, but will propose and be adamant on those changes

56

Dude I would gladly listen. Its the main reason for these posts,to snip out good ideas like i did just before our back and forth… but if you can’t present them in focused formatted bites I’m not going to dig through all that text.

For example…

Exhilarating Takedown: Replenish 5% Toughness on Weakspot Kill and gain ranged damage immunity for 2s.

Current: Replenish 15% Toughness and gain +10 damage reduction for 8s on ranged weakspot kill. Stacks 3 times.

Reasoning: Removed ranged limitation for more sustainable toughness in melee and added ranged immunity on proc the main reason for DR while attempting ranged headshots. Ranged focused tree should also encourage basic melee.

Out for Blood: Your Kills Replenish 5% Toughness on Kill and gain Toughness Damage Reduction for 5s. Stacks 3 times.

Current: No TDR

Reasoning: Balancing out Exhilarting Takedown with a melee focused version, that’s where TDR is needed most.

57

Yeh and thats batshit overpowered if it works as written. Ranged immunity, you mean suppression immunity? Whats stopping a Recon becoming invulnerable with that? Not to mention melee would be insane, you’d replenish your toughness with 1-2 attacks with ANY sword with cleave. So are you trying to buff swords? I think theyre currently very useable and this buff isnt what they need.

Edit not to mention but now need to, that it’d kill Lasgun play. It’d homogenise the game further. This is again, another of my points. Its ok to disagree, but to ignore, say you refuse to acknowledge coutnerpoints, then come up with stupid balance is, I suppose, discourse nowadays. I’ve stated, if you read, I disagree wit that too.

Youve turned ED into a talent that does everything, simultaneously gutted it as the only talent for Ranged sustain (Unless your reworked Out for Blood WORKS ON ALL RANGED) and made Recons OP as fcuk. I can’t imagine how standing in the open chainkilling all ranged is any fun. And this is why I mentioned, again, if you read, why balance is to be considered from a ceiling perspective and which.

What ARE the issues with these talents ? What IS the issue with Vet that would be fixed by these? And it can’t be based on how you play, it needs to be based on how everyone plays. As expected, you’ve gutted the playstyle I’ve been enjoying sicne Beta to improve your own.

58

This is currently in game as a blessing and talent (without weakspot hit)

Ghost
Immune to Ranged Attacks for 0.6-1.2s on Weak Spot Hit.

Hit & Run
Immune to Ranged Attacks for 0.7-1s on Close Range Kill.

Stripped Down
Gain Ranged Attack Immunity while sprinting with over 50-80% Stamina.

Out for Blood: Your Kills Replenish 5% Toughness on Kill

Counter points are valid, more reason to flesh out the bad ideas with exposure and fine tune for where they would be OP. Why its still in the thought process and haven’t made a post on it yet.

The reason as explained earlier is you don’t need toughness or TDR while racking up ranged kills.

59

just compare the activation requirement with the other classes, you are both too veteran centric

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60

My point is you didnt specify whether you meant suppression, or damage immunity, and still havn’t even after replying.

A blessing is not a talent, just because something is ingame doesn’t make it relevant to any discussion… I’ll prove it by saying something that may surprise you. That blessing does not exists on Recon. For a reason. You arent even acknowledging my points to balance your proposals, while you gut entire playstyles and literallyinsanely overpwoeredly buff others. Recon doesnt need buffs. Ranged immunity least of all.
I have pretty good Aim, I woudl not want to sacrifice a blessing to do this, as I can do it without needing the Blessing. Thisis in direct response to me saying should the Vet talents proposed as weak here be changed AND balanced around lower more casual or higher skill ceilings. Having it as a talent would give it to me for free, AND give it to Recon, which doesnt have this. As stated.

Its your opinion you dont need sustain/TDR to kill ranged, because of how you choose to play. Thats okay. I have been for multiple posts stating I think ranged sustain is invaluable. I’ve done so in this very post. The second I dont need to cover specials, and have room, I’m killing all ranged with headshots, Kantrael or Recon. Although Recon can frontline better by clearing hordes and elites, so its ‘time’ is spent elsewhere by a competant player and team, if not competant, the damage on the frontline has to be diverted to Ranged/Specials. Or just let them trap/bomb your team and not get the CDR for Shout for takin them out. I have said, not all classes and weapons are MEANT to do everything. That is the class mechanic of class based games in action in realtime.

What are the problems you seek to fix, because it seems like you just want to suggest changes to talents so they’ll work for you. And since I play Veteran too, I am saying how they might affect me.
I’ve read your OP and Get Back In The Fight is one of the talents I don’t leave home without. Its borderline Overpowered WHEN UTILIZED APPROPRIATELY, as in, with a DClaw. When you balance, you need to account for synergy. I’m not TRYING to single you out. I welcome the discussion, or I wouldnt be replying.

61

Every class has a gimmick activation to toughness regen at start of tree some easier more fun that others… the later toughness talents do tend to vary much more.

Ogryn on hit or on brace so easy but necessary bullet sponge hit box
Zealot has a ton of variety mostly around kills but also dodge and enemy proximity
Psyker more obviously tied to their peril mechanics

My apologies was so obvious to me i overlooked the defining. Ranged damage which i kind of assume also means suppression above talents are equally confusing as stating ranged attacks so details to be ironed out.

62

you forget the absolutely not busted toughness on crit that is supposed to be his tax to mettle (on top of all the rest)

the only point @Bastion220 can bring is that since he plays recon lasgun he can manage to get exal takedown to provide him with some toughness back a cuple more time than the others since he is holding down LMB most of the time

but in all his walls of texts he never even mention that, same as comparing the talents with other classes

back when bomber fire was getting you stunned i used this over Catch a Breath, but after the bomber’s bombs nerf i don’t find a use anymore

and now they even buffed the activation requirement for the other talent

immagine
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but even back then i still missed Catch a Breath, in those not so rare times that you are split off the team (maybe you just went looting after a fight), no enemies around but a cuple shooters, and you just spent your voc

also the 30 seconds cooldown is hilariously weak

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63

Recon has its own version Hit and Run, this is only range attacks immunity so I don’t consider it broken.

Agreed granting ranged immunity will protect your range focused style of play, it would likely diminish if your shooting with melee hazards around you, but you alternative incentive to pull out your melee and gain melee headshot restores for when you take a hit… or heck range melee weapon special attacks like hel laz

I can see its potential, I’m not really looking at it for big changes, though the more hostile and passionately you argue makes it harder to take you seriously.