Veteran Needs Rework With New weapons

[Nateskullex]

Hello I liked to share this propaganda post about veteran needs rework.

Ok so why does vets need rework

1.skill tree

He has so many white nodes pathing down the tree like toughness nodes. He has so many of it. I think it’s best to combine all of the toughness nodes in too 1 with iron will or make it base along with veteran so he has points left over. Also think he should have all his grenade nodes combine too into 1 and replace them with new nodes

This will allow him to freely pick going into a keystone or other nodes where other classes don’t have to waste points

For instance to get to shock trooper he has to waste a point for 0.25s stamina regeneration delay

It should be as base with veteran

Some nodes needs to be reverted or reworked or combined with others

Grenades

krak

Krak grenades needs to be reverted back to 60 secs why is that well. Is because skitty has a chord claw of 30 to 20 secs and can get 5 charges with it as well. He can easily wipe hordes and kill bosses, Crushers, with ease. Same with arbites. He gets a 90 sec with shock mine if you go loner but it does waaaay more. It can stun lock hordes and crushers,bulwarks for 15 secs that’s huge and he gets 3 of them. Same with remote detonation has a 50 secs good dmg for horde and apply shock debuff

Shredder Frag Grenade

Frag grenades used to be very good because of old uncanny strike where you get 100% rendering and the bleeds would delete hordes and crushers but now all it does is apply a minor stagger to small trash mobs.

It needs to be able to apply full stacks of bleed with a little longer duration to kill a horde or do a little more dmg. It does nothing with elites or special unless there very low on health or they have max stacks of bleed .

Smoke Grenade

Smokes are only decent against range enemies when you go higher up in difficulty but does nothing to close enemies that hit you. They need to apply a debuff of some sort like when a guy enters the smoke they have there walk speed reduce and attack speed as well and when there out of the smoke the debuff should linger for 10 secs. They really need some sort of debuff to enemies or a buff to allies in the smoke .

Catch a Breath

This is ok but needs to be permanent if you get hit in melee or 10% regen. Vets durability is already a wet tissue paper

Aura

Survivalist

Survivalist Should be a node or replaced and already in vets kit so other auras are more appealing. And if it gets reworked give it a higher % based on the weapons you are using. For instance 1% plasma, big man’s explosive weapons etc. While bolters maybe 2% And las guns 3% and bullets a bit higher like 5% etc.

Fire team

Fire team needs to have dmg 15% with rending 10% or cleave being higher

Close and kill

Should be 10% move speed with stamina regen

Shock trooper

Shock trooper needs to have different things happen

Las guns are ok consuming no ammo

Bullets needs to have a effect like when you crit you do 20% more dmg and you get rending for 20% or higher for 10 secs. and maybe a fire stack of 2 going all the way to 12 stacks etc

Bolters 20% dmg etc

Plasma gun 20% dmg etc

Skirmisher

Should also apply when you dodge an enemy and decay 1 at a time instead all.

Kill zone

Make it permanent with the white node 10% range damage with out not having it disabled when hit in melee. In total 25% range damage

Duck and Dive

Should apply to dodging melee as well and combine stamina white node, and 5% movement speed white node

Exploit Weakness

Apply with range critical hits as well

Competitive urge

Needs to have 15% chance its to low or needs a full rework

Covering fire

Gives your self at least the base damage of 15% and the rest of buff to your team

One motion

Combine with tactical reload with white node reload to

Ability

Executioner’s Stance

Exe stance needs a few things. Make it also have rending of 20% and melee dmg increase as well as making your gun automatically reload as well. This will make veteran good being a damage dealer for melee and range and doesn’t have to worry about armor as much

Voice of Command

So this is tough. golden toughness is hard to balance out because you can have full vets on your team and not take dmg shouting and staggering. I think my personal opinion just revert back to 30 secs or 35 secs and remove gold toughness and put 50% or 30% etc toughness dmg reduction with 5% toughness regen or etc . Again opinion.

Infiltrate

Infiltrate is hard to balance out to with it breaking the game and being able to grief other players.

In my opinion I heard some one say in game when having a conversation to remove it and replace it with something else like a grenade ability or dwarfs mini gun. Again I’ll leave that to the comments about that.

Keystones

Marksmans’s focus

Mark focus should be able to apply with melee kills as well and give you a little bit in melee dmg.

Focus target

Combine focused fire with main keystone or replace it and make the stacks go 8 and stacks always begin at 4 instead of 1 and if need to you can reduce redirect fire if the dmg stacks to high with it as well with target down.

Weapon specialist

For specialist if you get max stacks of range you don’t consume ammo for 5 secs. I don’t know

Ooook let’s move on

2. New Nodes

My opinion

A node called double edge. You get 15% more ammo 10% move speed , attack speed and dodge . 15% dmg. In return you get less toughness like 25 and Less regen or more ,less etc. This is supposed to be for if you value more of everything in turn less survival . High risk reward. Like arbitrator if he goes lone wolf with out his dog.

Explosive nodes

So I think people might enjoy this if they like to be a crowd control or dps area effect and I’ll mention this later needing new weapons like melta gun and grenade launcher.

So like Ogryn He has some explosive nodes like Big Boom 27.5% That would be good with vet as well and fire away like 4 stacks of fire would be good as well etc. This will make veteran a very fun class to play even more now he will have different ways to play rather he wants to be dps, crowd control, or buffing team.

3. New weapons

So I would love to see melta gun and grenade launcher and heavy stubber, flame thrower . There’s also hot shot and there’s plasma pistol. As for big man’s give him iron knuckles, a long big chain axe , and a big flamethrower. I like to hear people’s thoughts what weapons needs to be added.

4. Rework old weapons

Auto guns

The auto guns needs to have either more ammo or more dmg, or rending to them etc .

Bolters

The mk lll spearhead bolter that does less damage needs to have more area affect damage with aoe or more base damage to compensate with lower ammo compared to mk llb. same with smaller pistol bolters.

Plasma gun mk lll

The mk lll plasma gun needs to be able to explode even when you don’t hit an enemy like when it touches a ground or wall. And have the aoe blast dmg increased as well with more aoe range slightly.

Ok that’s all. I would like to think what people have to say about a rework with veteran with more build opportunities and new weapons. Also zealots needs a rework to.

[Vror]

Focusing on Skill Tree

@Nateskullex

1.skill tree

He has so many white nodes pathing down the tree like toughness nodes. He has so many of it. I think it’s best to combine all of the toughness nodes in too 1 with iron will or make it base along with veteran so he has points left over. Also think he should have all his grenade nodes combine too into 1 and replace them with new nodes

nah

@Nateskullex

For instance to get to shock trooper he has to waste a point for 0.25s stamina regeneration delay

Like this is the >only< white node that needs to be addressed, all other white nodes are fine (maybe replace reload boost to another 10% ranged damage)

@Nateskullex

It should be as base with veteran

Vet having base 0.5s stamina regen delay would be ludicrous

@Nateskullex

krak

Krak grenades needs to be reverted back to 60 secs why is that well. Is because skitty has a chord claw of 30 to 20 secs and can get 5 charges with it as well. He can easily wipe hordes and kill bosses, Crushers, with ease. Same with arbites. He gets a 90 sec with shock mine if you go loner but it does waaaay more. It can stun lock hordes and crushers,bulwarks for 15 secs that’s huge and he gets 3 of them. Same with remote detonation has a 50 secs good dmg for horde and apply shock debuff

This is a Demo stockpile change, not a krak change

Krak could go down to 75s, but Demo Team needs to be nerfed immediatly after that then

@Nateskullex

Shredder Frag Grenade

Frag grenades used to be very good because of old uncanny strike where you get 100% rendering and the bleeds would delete hordes and crushers but now all it does is apply a minor stagger to small trash mobs.

It needs to be able to apply full stacks of bleed with a little longer duration to kill a horde or do a little more dmg. It does nothing with elites or special unless there very low on health or they have max stacks of bleed .

They do really well as “get off me” nades, and since you can hold so many of them at once, and you can print them relatively fast, I really dont’ see these getting buffed

@Nateskullex

Smoke Grenade

Smokes are only decent against range enemies when you go higher up in difficulty but does nothing to close enemies that hit you. They need to apply a debuff of some sort like when a guy enters the smoke they have there walk speed reduce and attack speed as well and when there out of the smoke the debuff should linger for 10 secs. They really need some sort of debuff to enemies or a buff to allies in the smoke .

Only if it doesn’t make ranged enemies stop firing anymore, but instead shoot where they last saw you before you went inside the smoke

@Nateskullex

Catch a Breath

This is ok but needs to be permanent if you get hit in melee or 10% regen. Vets durability is already a wet tissue paper

No

Literally all vet abilities make him survive bad situations

@Nateskullex

Aura

Survivalist

Survivalist Should be a node or replaced and already in vets kit so other auras are more appealing. And if it gets reworked give it a higher % based on the weapons you are using. For instance 1% plasma, big man’s explosive weapons etc. While bolters maybe 2% And las guns 3% and bullets a bit higher like 5% etc.

Agreed that it should be basekit and only apply to himself rather than his whole team, I don’t agree with making it different for each weapon in this specific case

And because we have 1 free aura slot, this new aura could simply be a weakspot damage increase for everyone in coherency (since it’s on the ranged/precision side of it)

@Nateskullex

Fire team

Fire team needs to have dmg 15% with rending 10% or cleave being higher

7.5% dmg and 10% rending would be fine probably

@Nateskullex

Close and kill

Should be 10% move speed with stamina regen

10% is insanely broken

5% movespeed with an increased backstab damage could be great (since it’s on the Infiltrate side of the tree)

@Nateskullex

Shock trooper

Shock trooper needs to have different things happen

Las guns are ok consuming no ammo

Bullets needs to have a effect like when you crit you do 20% more dmg and you get rending for 20% or higher for 10 secs. and maybe a fire stack of 2 going all the way to 12 stacks etc

Bolters 20% dmg etc

Plasma gun 20% dmg etc

Yeah I agree with the idea of making every ranged weapon benefit from it, not exactly the ones you proposed however

@Nateskullex

Skirmisher

Should also apply when you dodge an enemy and decay 1 at a time instead all.

Meta talent that does this much does not require buffs

@Nateskullex

Kill zone

Make it permanent with the white node 10% range damage with out not having it disabled when hit in melee. In total 25% range damage

Make it more fun

Increase the damage to 20%, but keep the no being hit from melee requirement instead

@Nateskullex

Duck and Dive

Should apply to dodging melee as well and combine stamina white node, and 5% movement speed white node

That’s broken

I would be fine if it simply was buffed to also recover 1 dodge when dodging ranged attacks, alongisde the 30% stamina

@Nateskullex

Exploit Weakness

Apply with range critical hits as well

Nah, that’s what Onslaught is for

@Nateskullex

Competitive urge

Needs to have 15% chance its to low or needs a full rework

This is a flawed talent since in Havoc this would proc TOO much, needs to be reworked as a whole

@Nateskullex

Covering fire

Gives your self at least the base damage of 15% and the rest of buff to your team

I feel this would essentially be “15% damage per ranged kill” and that’s very easy to achieve and apply permanently

@Nateskullex

One motion

Combine with tactical reload with white node reload to

Maybe to 1 of those, not both however

@Nateskullex

Ability

Executioner’s Stance

Exe stance needs a few things. Make it also have rending of 20% and melee dmg increase as well as making your gun automatically reload as well. This will make veteran good being a damage dealer for melee and range and doesn’t have to worry about armor as much

No

Stop buffing Exec Stance, it’s already a beast

You get stun immunity for melee playstyles
You get permanent ranged bonus for weapons like Helbore since it’s very easy to sustain

10% toughness regen per second just for having it active

It’s already insane, stop buffing it, if Zealot got this everyone would be screaming to nerf it

@Nateskullex

Voice of Command

So this is tough. golden toughness is hard to balance out because you can have full vets on your team and not take dmg shouting and staggering. I think my personal opinion just revert back to 30 secs or 35 secs and remove gold toughness and put 50% or 30% etc toughness dmg reduction with 5% toughness regen or etc . Again opinion.

Eh, just make Gold Toughness not protect over spillover damage and both Book and Shout are essentially solved

You can lower the cooldown to 35s if this is done yes

@Nateskullex

Infiltrate

Infiltrate is hard to balance out to with it breaking the game and being able to grief other players.

In my opinion I heard some one say in game when having a conversation to remove it and replace it with something else like a grenade ability or dwarfs mini gun. Again I’ll leave that to the comments about that.

I mean either Lock N Loaded from Bounty Hunter (In the Shape of a Plasma Pistol)

Or Crank Gun from Bardin (In the Shape of a Hellgun)

@Nateskullex

Keystones

Marksmans’s focus

Mark focus should be able to apply with melee kills as well and give you a little bit in melee dmg.

No to melee buffs
And I think melee weakspot hits already refresh the duration of it (but not give any stacks, I could be wrong however)

@Nateskullex

Focus target

Combine focused fire with main keystone or replace it and make the stacks go 8 and stacks always begin at 4 instead of 1 and if need to you can reduce redirect fire if the dmg stacks to high with it as well with target down.

Best Keystone does not need buffs

@Nateskullex

Weapon specialist

For specialist if you get max stacks of range you don’t consume ammo for 5 secs. I don’t know

Make the ranged crit buff last for 1s upon firing instead of it being 1 single critical ranged shot, this way automatic weapons can benefit from it

[Khorne_Dawg]

This HAS to be bait. If this isn’t bait, Veteran mains are NOT beating the allegations.

[Effigy]

@Nateskullex

For instance to get to shock trooper he has to waste a point for 0.25s stamina regeneration delay

This is a strong node. In some builds I go out of my way to take it even without taking Shock Trooper. Getting it on the way to ST is pretty good, especially when paired with a weapon that likes push attacks, such as knife, tac axe, and shovel.

The value of stamina delay doesn’t scale linearly. The shorter the delay, the more likely you are to regen some stamina before dodging again, which pauses the regen.

[MarxistDictator]

The ammo node is the real tax node since you can’t get the 0.25s without it and I want it nearly all the time. It is the single most valuable node in the game with no picture, it is the best white node of all. The reworked veteran tree should have made it a keystone like the zealot’s cooldown modifier and put on both sides of the tree still, so you could get 0.5 delay but no lower and without having to run a bunch of not-melee talents to get it. The worst element of it to me is that any shocktrooping deadshot build I would have ‘tunnel vision’ on already for stamina. It feels a bit dated to have left it there after making that change.

[BongoSkaggs]

@Khorne_Dawg

If this isn’t bait, Veteran mains are NOT beating the allegations.

Never have. Always been the whiniest class by far. Not for entirely no reason mind you. But still.

[dragomusic]

Vet players have gone insane

[Effigy]

I feel like it might make more sense to swap positions of the stamina regen node and Onslaught. Stamina regen is more of a melee node (apart from using it with Deadshot) and Onslaught is more of a shooty node. Onslaught also doesn’t pair that well with Weapons Specialist, which synergizes best with single high-damage shots and Onslaught is best with full-auto guns.

Swapping their locations in the tree would be a moderate buff to both shooty Vet and melee Vet builds, with the only drawback being Deadshot builds. Deadshot can use Tunnel Vision for stamina recovery though, so it still seems workable. Whether Vet needs the buff is debatable, but this change at least makes more sense with the way the tree is laid out.

[Nateskullex]

Also I have a another idea for auto guns what if they where to get a blessing called puncture it will just give you bleed stacks instead of fire dealing more damage but decaying fast

[Nateskullex]

Also what about a new node called CQC you apply bleed stacks to enemies that you dogged from in a 2.5 meter radius

[Dizzy721]

I don’t think Vet needs a rework. There have been some loud voices making similar claims and I just don’t agree. One thing I will say is that the tree rework that happened last year was maybe too well optimized and the critique that there isn’t a ton of build variety is valid. Like if you’re pathing down the tree and you’re given the option to take an S-tier node and an A or B-tier node, you’re going to take the S-tier node nearly every time. And then almost all of the most potent nodes are connected to each other.

Designing the tree this way makes sense! The days of trees having balancing in the form of point taxes is mostly over and if done, it’s usually only to specific nodes and not entire build playstyles. The players for the most part wanted this, especially after the Arbites tree showed what was possible. But the rework we received for Vet had two major flaws. First, is that in optimizing out all the tax nodes and streamlining pathing, the standard/meta builds from pre-rework just got stronger. The best build got more points to play with to buff up whatever fits your playstyle the most. Sure the off-meta builds are also stronger but they’re still not the “optimal” way to play. Second, is that the new talents they’ve added since are either poop from a butt or super niche and haven’t affected the meta in anyway. So if you’re a Vet player you’ve been playing like a 90% similar build since the patch they added his keystones.

Yet it’s possible to run every single weapon available (though maybe not every combination of melee and ranged) to the Vet in multiple different builds and do off-meta weird things and have great results. This is ultimately why a rework is not necessary; a few tweaks would be welcome for sure but the class doesn’t need heavy touch. The class can unlock a bit more build variety with a different layout for the section above MMF. The +Ranged Suppression node is just bad, the 10% TDR node is also not very good. Replace these nodes with some interesting talents and make Kill Zone easier to grab, e.g. in the slot where Ranged Suppression is right now, or just remove those talents and redo the layout. Is anyone taking Deadshot and not also MMF? That could be moved down and something like +Clip Size moved up, for example.

Some other talents that are underpowered are:

• Competitive Urge: Either increase the uptime (higher proc chance or longer duration) or make it stronger (20% impact is nothing and suppression who cares)

• Covert Operative: 30% multiplicative damage increase is not bad but the condition to trigger it is. The two ways that come to mind to reliably trigger it are: 1) dive in with Infiltrate and -Threat subnode and 2) Tauntgryn. With 1, you could just take the easily accessible weakspot damage talents and just tap Infiltrate and shoot people in the front of their face for more damage. With 2) you’re shooting enemies that can’t fight back and not every taunt is going to pull enemies in such a way where you’re going to get the flanking damage. Boost the damage, add some secondary effect like enemies killed by a flanking shot give DR for 5 seconds or something, idk. Or buff ways to make flanking more viable without team cooperation that isn’t cringe -Threat node.

• Leave No One Behind: I do not think I’ve ever picked this node. From a pathing perspective, it’s competing with Demo Team which is just insanely good or Born Leader which is good in many builds as well. Also Only In Death Does Duty End exists. Just yell at your teammate and they get up with Gold Toughness which is much better than extra 33% DR on top of what you already get on being revived. Perhaps if this gave the DR bonus on saving teammates from incapacitated states as well or if it gave some toughness back to the saved teammate, maybe it might be pickable. The talent makes a ton of sense for the “Squad Leader” Vet, but players at higher diffs aren’t eating disables enough for that part to matter or you’re in a tight coherency so like you get 20% movespeed to move 5 meters to push a dog off or remove a net. A completely new talent would also be acceptable here. Something like Comrade in Arms from FK though not as much DR.

On the basis of balance, there isn’t any need for a rework for Vet. If the motivation is shaking up the meta or breathing new life in the class, then sure that’s something you can want. As far as criteria go, that’s quite subjective. I don’t need that personally, I’ve been playing Vet since beta and will continue to play this class more than any other until I stop playing this game altogether.

[Nateskullex]

I think after the end of today he still needs a rework not a buff. The reason I think this is because veteran just feels to bland or simple. The skill tree reminds me of the previous ogryn tree

The same people said he did not needed but at the end of the day he still has gotten it because his skill tree is heavily limited, had terrible pathing, and just inferior nodes no one will picked and was just not creative. That led to big man’s not being fun and everyone builds being the same

Now look at big man’s skill tree, they have given him an extra base toughness 5% extra and 40 dmg resist after dodging in his kit. And it’s more spread out. With a ton of new nodes. He’s very fun to play

The reason why I recommend to have all his toughness nodes or grenade nodes combined into 1 and have them replaced with new nodes is because his limited

Your always going to take iron will so you can’t get 2 shotted, and plus it’s at above 75% it can easily go down by regular shooters or ragers. And now you have no dmg resistance but to rely on confirmed kill and close drill if your near your allies, or out for blood if you take it or exhilarating takedown

Your always going to take desperado, superiority complex,bring it down with 15% melee node and precision strikes to reach breaking points or won’t being able to reliable do dmg with your melee

Your always taking tactical awareness so you have up time on your cooldown

And now your left with either 6 to 7 points

That’s half of your build and every one that plays vet is no different

Then you have other classes that feels that can have 10 different builds while vet is just a small ammo pocket and to shout all day to give a 10 sec buff on a 40 sec cooldown or using stealth to join a game and grief players like there’s no tomorrow if not used right. And there’s execution stance. Which I find myself using that way more because it’s just better than shout if you take born leader you buff your team giving them some toughness regen with that 10% regen and has 100% up time while shout feels so short duration

Other classes are just busted

I’m not gonna surger coat it

If we can’t have a 60 secs on cooldown with kraks then we have to nerf other classes than like skitty . Chord claw Can literally kill multiple hordes with wide sweeps, delete crushers and bosses like there a can opener, can even get 5 CHARGES ON A 30 TO 20 SEC COOLDOWN. How is that fair.

What about Scummy. The pistol needle . That thing can just make you not fight the bosses at all and just focus on other things. AND HES GOT INFINITE AMMO LIKE EXCUSE ME I GUESS MY AMMO PRINT DAYS ARE OVER NOW.

We even got flame staff with schizo just lighting up my whole screen in the middle of the night playing the game melting hordes and debuffing every thing. And smite​. He can just turn the game off when ever he wants

What about big man He can just use the rumbler with point blank barrage and just had its cool down reduce to last patch. Can just send 3 bombs out and there’s no horde. Boss? no no no. Beast of nurgle got turn into a heretic all you can eat buffet on a Monday morning Breakfast​ . Same with the power maul

And then there’s Arbites. He has a better shout. Why. we’ll look at his cooldown of break the line…. 20 secs. No less than that. He can do it over 10 secs if you’re using targeted brutality with malocator. Bro is the definition of a high schooler bully who is taller than you and can just give you the meanest wedgie pull you will ever have in your entire life​. And there’s nothing you can do about it. Long story short he can just perma stun hordes and chrushers,bulwarks. While debuffing them of course

Then final zesty hobo man . Can just brick your game, run off and solo when ever he wants with out the care in the world with shroudfeild and delete bosses

You wanna know what’s worse let’s even if you nerf there whole weapons. They still make up for it with there skill tree and will still be more fun to play than veteran

Yes Veteran can be ok but ok is not good enough. Even if you solo in havoc as vet. Does not make the class fun to play or not better in terms of other classes. While others being able to tank, dps, crowd control, run away, move, fast, dodge, or do some of them with 3 of them and do some crazy stuff

That’s why he should at least have some sort of new nodes and new weapons or rework old weapons like auto guns so he can be more fun to play with more build diversity and not be using the same things over and over again . He doesn’t have to be over powered. Right now he’s boring Compared to other classes

And I’m sorry this is long but I really do love veteran. I love being a soldier in games or grunt and just got into warhammer fan base. He’s or she is so cool being able to say GET IN THEIR MAKE THEM SCREAM, NOT ONE STEP BACK ,THERE IS ONLY WAR

Those words alone are just so inspirational when I first played the game years back and still is . Had my heart pumping like I was actually in game fighting for my life. I can’t even think of a game that does that

I just don’t care if vet is good I just want him to be more fun to play with more build diversity. I don’t even play havoc and I can be bad at the game too

[Ryshek]

@Nateskullex

And then there’s Arbites. He has a better shout. Why. we’ll look at his cooldown of break the line…. 20 secs. No less than that.

Break the line doesn’t revive people and it doesn’t give yellow toughness. BTL doesn’t stagger monsters either. I don’t think you can even really compare these despite the fact you are @_@

[Nateskullex]

Ok

[CobaltNinja]

I’ve never seen a more critical misunderstanding of Veteran and Darktide before. World-class post, OP.

[Vror]

I think Vet needs love on the left side of the tree but honestly that’s probably it

[Vror]

@Nateskullex

I just don’t care if vet is good I just want him to be more fun to play with more build diversity. I don’t even play havoc and I can be bad at the game too

I have a feeling that they more “build diversity” in question is “let me shoot my weapon 90% of the game”

On one hand I don’t blame you, on the other hand get in melee you karker

[Ryshek]

I disagree 0=

I feel like vet has become too much of a support class. I don’t like the way it feels. Field improv corruption removal should be made baseline - add a small amount of grenade regen to ammo crates. Change the ammo regen aura to anything else. Change focus target to be personal.

It just feels like too much of a utility class imo. That won’t go away until utility is removed or ideally replaced with something else.

[Vror]

@Ryshek

It just feels like too much of a utility class imo. That won’t go away until utility is removed or ideally replaced with something else.

And this is a bad thing because?

Idk, I feel I can build both support or melee easily. Ranged only if using Helbore (or maybe Recon but I don’t like it)

Melee potential of vet will outdamage a FoTF Zealot, just being slightly more squishy

If the left side got love however, vet could also become a more viable marksman that would make him more unique

[Ryshek]

@Vror

And this is a bad thing because?

You know, I’m not sure how to answer this without stating that being forced into a role to be viable for havoc feels bad.

The support roles for veteran are so powerful that their absence feels like purposely kneecapping yourself. I don’t think other classes are forced into that position as hard as veteran is and I think that’s a bad thing.