mfw i have to malign keystones correctly
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Sorry, are u for their dumb points or point out the flaws? Iām too tired and my autistim is making it hard to tell sarcasm tbh
I mean some do but (99% bet itās people who donāt know it doesnāt work on melee, trying to get the penance or people trying way too hard to squeeze out the extra damage) but again if u wanna go that route they should really get camouflage and just aim for the head, no need to be scared walking lmao
Youād be correct to say Iām getting off topic at least, but I donāt think itās super unreasonable to hope Veteran Sharpshooter has some more accessible spread reduction and fire rate. WS upsets me somewhat because it DOES have fire rate, just barely any, then it has FIVE sub nodes and somehow not one of them does basically anything for my favourite Space AK.
It fits my brauto playstyle on Vet well with sporadic controlled bursts, so it just makes me kinda sad it shouldnāt cross the line there.
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Tbh I always though recoil reduction would go pretty well with Marksman and would make more sense replacing the current non exisitant reload speed and best fit the idea or keystone. Combining some of the lower nodes together and slightly nerfing base ws to make way for better would also be pretty dope.
And sorry for eariler, guess we got off on the wrong foot tbh
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Nah youāre alright I get the sentiment of being sick of people screaming for buffs for stuff thatās already good.
TBC Iām very aware Vetās already good, most of the things I think should change are QoL and outlined in my original post here.
We just got a bit sidetracked there 
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I personally think some of the qol stuff in the post step right over into powercreep (that crabwalk marksman focus bit in particular) but there is definitly ways they can do good,
my personally biggest bother is infantry las, combat shotgun and helbore all having mobility stats comparable to bolter (down to the added 1.75 stam cost) and wish theyād change it along with the dodge distance and maybe running speed but mainly the first two.
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Yeah I donāt disagree (lampshaded in original post). More just that keystone has some accessibility issues clearly. Besides only being practical or worth it with a handful of guns (I adore it with laspistol), it definitely has a PR problem. Iām not sure how that should be addressed though and I donāt particularly want it reworked entirely.
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I get ya, as mentioned some accuracy and recoil reduction would help, maybe an extra second on headshot and 2 for headshot kill, maybe some better add-on nodes would help but beyond that tbhā¦ I donāt really see much needed. I think trying too hard to make it work for every gun would backfire and make it too good univerally without the interesting climbup gimmick that forces the player to engage and ultimatly make it fun
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My honest opinion is that Veteranās tree has regular nodes strong enough to be keystones and also that the sub-nodes for all of his keystones are mostly whatever.
I donāt feel like Iām missing something crucial to my build when I go without a Keystone the same way Iād feel something is missing if I donāt take survivalist or demo stockpile.
Weapon Specialist and Always Prepared being the exceptions.
And no, I donāt think Veteran needs to be buffed repeatedly.
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Given the nature of the way the haphazard and hurried way the Vet keystones introduced, I find it really hard to give any intention that much credit, and itās an odd intention given the nature of what Keystones are supposed to be, and an intention that has been communicated nowhere.
The Vet keystones really feel overthought and unrefined, again requiring more conditions or active triggering than most of the other Keystones in the game. A player can trigger Blazing Piety or Warp Siphon doing literally nothing themselves. FNP and Burst Limiter Override are just always on, while Heavy Hitter stacks whenever you justā¦hit something. Empowered Psionics is just an always-on Proc chance that makes your next Blitz attack more powerful. The only Keystones that have the same level of conditions/triggers as the Vet talents really are Martyrdom and Disrupt Destiny.
Hrm, looking at the tree, I donāt think Iām seeing that. The Keystone and upgrade nodes all portray a character calmly taking aim with a scoped weapon and crosshairs, imagery typically associated with careful aimed shots. Likewise, itās the side of the tree with all the weakspot damage enhancements (again ostensibly emphasizing careful aimed shots) and talents that give damage bonuses for staying at distance and out of melee or things like sway reduction for aimed shots.
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i said my pice back when it happened
These were the changes made to *balance* the new keystones in, they weren't even included in the patch notes, they were all stealth
- Confirmed Kill:
Before: 25% toughness on elite/special kill, another 25% over 10 seconds
After: 10% toughness on elite/special kill, another 20% over 10 seconds - Out For Blood:
Before: Additional 2.5% toughness on kills
After: Additional 3.5% toughness on kills - Fire Team:
Before: +3% damage to everyone in coherency
After: +5% damage to everyone in coherency - Twinned Blast:
Before: 10% chance to throw an extra grenade for free
After: 20% chance to throw an extra grenade for free - Executionerās Stance:
Given an extra node that will highlight Ogryn enemies
Voice of Command: (this one was actually noted in the patch notes)
Before: Duty and Honor node gives +100 extra maximum toughness
After: Duty and Honor node gives +50 extra maximum toughness - For the Emperor!
Before: On ability use, +20% melee and ranged damage for 5 seconds
After: On ability use, +10% melee and ranged damage for 5 seconds - Skirmisher:
Before: Sprinting gives you 5% damage for 5 seconds, stacking up to 3 times
After: Sprinting gives you 5% damage for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times - Bring it down!:
Before: +25% damage to Ogryns and Monsters
After: +20% damage to Ogryns and Monsters - Trench Fighter Drill:
Before : +15% melee attack speed
After: +10% melee attack speed - Marksman:
Before: On ability use, +50% stronger weakspot damage for 10 seconds
After: On ability use, +20% stronger weakspot damage for 10 seconds (Ouch) - Close Quarters Killzone:
Before: On ability use, +30% close damage for 10 seconds
After: On ability use, +15% close damage for 10 seconds
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I think the fundamental problem with the keystones is that they do too little to reward changing how you play, and instead just give you bonuses for what youāre doing anyway. And because theyāre bonuses for what youāre doing anyway, FS canāt make them all that great. (This is true for several non-Vet keystones, too, but I think Vetās the worst offender.)
For the left, itās shooting things in the head.
For the center, itās just shooting things. (Though I suppose for some players the tag function is unexplored territory.)
For the right, itās melee-range swapping. I think this is the best keystone currently, because it does the most toward making a new playstyle possible ā¦ Though, really, I guess that comes down to some increased melee ability and the free reloads.
What Iād like to see:
Many of the current keystone talents moved elsewhere in the tree, and other talents moved to ā¦
Grenadier Keystone - Hereās where youād find all those great grenade-centric talents that you see on, it seems, pretty much every Vet now.
Commander Keystone - The support talents arenāt all moved here, but this is where you get the talents to make them great. If you want gold toughness, you only get it here.
Commando Keystone: Weapon Specialist but with a one word name, see? I assume other improvements could be made.
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they make you jump hoops for buffs that you donāt need
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I like this idea, Swap FT with Grenadier, turn FT into a flat lower increase optional buff removes the stack management and just encourages tagging.
Throwing Grenades feels more support-like to me than creating something new in commander may even be able to incorporate golden toughness into it and remove it from shout.
The left tree needs a solid ranged Keystone so making it grenadier or commander doesnāt fit.
Marksmanās focus makes sense in concept a marksman stops aims kills then moves but in Darktide you āoftenā have to pull out your sword and lose all stacks. Could rework it with time-based conditions rather than movement or add melee qualifiers such as melee headshots extend timer (alsozara) and/or lose stacks based on missing shots or headshots to de-emphasize spam weapons.
Otherwise, could rework to emphasize the single shot accuracy more possibly with first strike range bonuses (similar to Grail Knight), a burst fire node to shoot multiple rounds in on pull(for the slow pull weapons)
I donāt really think Veteran needs buffs as much as he needs nerfs so you can add more interesting impactful talents and less flat gains. The keystones just seem like the most obvious place to start.
I think it would go better with WS due to the added ranged attack speed.
Yeah strangely it tries to fit both fire rate and auto crit (fast and slow range weapons) seems it should emphasis more with the fast weapons as the close quarters keystone and just apply a increase crit chance for duration and get more ābangā out of stack beyond 3.
String crits are extremely gimmicky notion rather than intentional similar to Shroudfield range multi-procing.
Executionerās Stance is the only method for Veteran accuracy/recoil boosts. If veteran or especially WS, where the fire rate recoil increases, had something like dance of death all of a sudden ranged fire rate becomes usable on more weapons.
We all know how it will endā¦
A giant buff for Veteran coming right after a giant buff for zealot that will come cause of the giant buff of Ogryn and that was made cause of the skill tree improvement for psyker (no real buff, but psyker was already above everything is term of DPS)ā¦
Welcome in the Fatshark world post ādevelopers that had the skills to pay attention to balanceāā¦
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presumptuous nonsense, vet get nerfed every odd patch since before launch, and never saw a single buff talent wise, except for worthless talents that nobody should pick
Fatsharks used to nerf based on most played class, which is totaly unrelated to its powercreep level
Vet players keep spamming vet even if they get destroyed in games, iām seeing this especially now on new havoc, its an epidemic of veterans
if they follow the same criteria theyāll just keep bashing at the dead horse
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yesā¦ you pointed the reason why I was playing more than 15 hours per week, and now why I play it 2 hoursā¦
Havocā¦ havocā¦ havoc.
If it is the way to balance the game, as I said I am out then. If at least we could have a solo game, I could ignore all balance discussionsā¦
No, veteran is pretty strong. I wonāt talk about havoc, cause I donāt play it and moreover I wonāt consider something that nuke intentionally many builds as a reference to balance things.
The simple hidden modifier on ammos restrict veteran to few weapons, basically PG (cause it is well known that this weapon is balanced perfectly 
) and laser weapons.
And yes we had nerfs. Thanks to the ones that requested these keystones. Veteran was great before keystonesā¦ but since patch 13, they nerf with a big fear and buff with enthustiasm.
So we will seeā¦ I predict a buff of zealot (Ogryn is now too good on melee) and then a buff on veteranā¦ we will see (maybe not me if Dune is somewhat good)ā¦
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nobody said this, but have it your way, iām perfectly fine if vet and psykers are inconvenient to be played outside of normal games
i like playing vet with exec stance, so i go in normal auric malestorms games and i play there, there is nothing wrong with the game being balanced over Malice difficulty
and i think its nonsense that small arms are capable of one tapping mobs in damantion games
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not meā¦ thatās one reason to refuse to play havoc.
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