I find tagging natural, but i prefer the old Witch Hunter version of flat buff on taggable not this building up of stacks… maybe lower flat buff for tagging
Forced weapon swapping does feels like you’re racing the clock I have a love hate relationship with “Agile Engagement” more than weapon specialist because it’s so powerful but has a clock… you’re spending a lot of time swapping to maximize… But specialist has more on swap reward only forced is on your toes for toughness.
Marksman’s focus is a strange one here id like the stack clock instead of the not moving one… maybe add weakspot hits too increase at a lower stack rate.
Change weapon specialist proc to be on trigger pull/melee swing rather than weapon swap. I don’t doubt this feels much less awkward in super intense maps where you’re fighting a heap of threats literally all the time. But on any difficulty lower than that it feels genuinely awful to run around double thinking swapping weapon because you don’t want to waste the proc when the next threat appears.
This also allows Hellbore to get both effects without swapping which could create a fun new build for it.
MF could be make to feel a bit better to more players if melee headshots paused stack decay like ranged ones do. Less worry about meleeing for longer periods as long as you keep hitting heads. I dunno though that could also just give it infinite uptime so maybe there’s a better alternative
Focus Target is good but terminally uninteresting and frankly just inferior to witch hunter tag passive in basically every way. Like it’s fine but also I don’t know what they think they were cooking redesigning and over complicating something that worked very well to begin with.
That seems much more reasonable / efficient here I’m thinking about adding a swap speed and reload speed to it just so you’re not wasting range proc when it could just be on shot, without extra buffing. Or changing habits of reloading before swapping to melee.
Thats kind of mind blowing idea too sound cool, some other weapon melee attacks also would proc it.
Edit: Gave Hellbore a good go and was surprised how well it works with weapon specialist attack speed doesn’t really need the crit with Surgical though.
Mate, ws is one of if not the best keystone in the game to the point I’d argue it needs a slight nerf
Melee 3 enemies and you’re garentieed a ranged crit/crit string, kill a enemy with ranged and u get faster swing speed meaning more lights and quicker heavies along with 10% extra dodge distance and speed. It’s lower nodes being bad is annoying but it’s already more powerful then the other 2 with less effort and in more situations
If anything u should be making a thread on the other 2
I did reword OP and reorder to give other keystones more spotlight, they are also up for debate.
I’m very unsure what “10% dodge speed” is or if "10% dodge has ever saved anyone. Specialist seems just like a keystone for kill and swap for attack speed bonus which in melee mostly benefits light attack spamming. For range its 1 Auto Crit on swap encouraging plasma builds… or you can sync alot of talents into it and at beginning for a rapid reload build but more damage hindering (at loss of better other talents) for the gimmick IMO.
the deal with vet keystone update was clear, they stripped stats from other talents to put them in the keystones, but many builds never reach them, therefore its a huge scam
The existing keystones are all “oopsies” to some degree. Patch 13 launched with no Vet keystones for the 2.0 Tree because FS’s original concept wasn’t working (weapon-specific keystones). What we got was developed and launched in basically a month with a 3.0 Vet tree, and then we got a 4.0 Vet tree because once Vet got keystones they all required 2-4 more points to reach than every other class.
I don’t think any of them are particularly great, and this is reflected in how often and how capably Vet can play without a Keystone relative to other classes where this is basically unthinkable for the most part. Looking at the keystones of other classes, the vet Keystones all require more conditions or active engagement to trigger/utilize and they just don’t feel quite as well thought out.
It gives more distance and faster, I’d say it’s probably helped a few and for what it’s paired with it’s a pretty dam good bonus
Increase in attack speed makes heavies quicker to use.
It is just 1 crit but for some weapons (mainly automatics) that crit enables follow up shots to act like crits too, hence the term crit strings.
I think this is the misunderstanding, you don’t invest in it like u do the others. Beyond always prepped in a revolver build or maybe invigorated in a deadshot build it’s not worth investing more into the keystone.
Vet’s blue talents are vastly superior to 2 out of 3 keystones.
Like you actually can get free ammo, infinite grenades, free lasgun shots, 3 sources of rending and one of the best CDR talents in game before you ever reach a keystone.
Your going to have to explain what act like crits means, I can’t think of how this is possible in all seriousness.
I was being a little sarcastic in that dodges are practically instant so how does 10% speed help, distance i can see maybe similar to certain weapons have slightly higher dodge distances. But after playing Ogryn enough I don’t think i need any extra.
I do understand just that your heavy charge to release is practically the same with practice… would actually have to master charging and releasing faster for 10s and readapt to the slower speed after speed fall off which I find detrimental to any benefit gained, light attack spamming much safer and less acclimating, but i could see some people finding it useful.
Yeah it’s pretty strong for quick swap shoot once or twice then swap back guns like revolver. I think it’s pretty dubious for automatic weapons. Like brauto is boosted so much more by IJ than by WS it’s a little silly. I mean it’s not inherently problematic that WS doesn’t support brauto, or shotguns particularly well (double barrel aside). It is however kind of a bummer he doesn’t have a well fitting keystone for these anywhere.
I see today is the “I don’t understand vet but gonna argue he should be buffed and changed anyway” day
It’s a crit, once u hit a crit there’s usually a window allowing the next 3-4 shots to also be crits. U can test this in the pysykhanium by using an automatic gun and activating weapon specialist. The orange shots in the healthbar should be the crits
Faster start, faster finish. not nessicary but with the melee perk it’s a nice addition.
I’ll ask more experienced people about this just to check if it does but u might wanna try with slower weapons then and try releasing earlier
It’s on the builders for not saving enough to get them, not the games fault
Oh this I wanna hear more on this
I think it shows the opposite in how powerful he is, he does have more skill nodes after all
The free ammo is an aura, free lasgun shots is outright easier with a keystone, rending is almost always mid to bad and is outmatched against at least the middle and right keystone.
It’s people like you who think nerfing the dueling sword is a bad idea isn’t it…
Gold is fine and allows both u and ur team to do more damage against something and the modifiers apply even if u didn’t get the kill making deadshot builds possible, that sounds pretty good to me and a lot more balanced then infinte grenades lmao
“Crabwalk” just requires u to hit heads and u can walk as much as u want and u can ask for them to add an ammo perk onto it with a survivalist nerf, is this so hard for people to grasp?
It gives them a crit string, if u get a crit and continue shooting u get extra crit shots. Slap infernus on a recon and you can get a extra 200 damage ontop of multi crit damage.
I tried looking for these and still have no clue what either of these terms mean so clarify but shotguns have manstopper and flechete so it can work well in a weapon specialist builld (then again scattershot does exist… and requires u to shoot first to before u get a crit so it can still work well even with it)
I swear gaining 24-30% extra damage against an enemy means nothing to u lot does it… And considering the Assault versions still have the run stats of the bolter (including the extra stam cost) I think thats the least of its worrys
and while I’m at it:
If you’re implying tagging the same person takes away the buff, it doesn’t. That was patched a good while back, you can test this in the psykanium if needed. I’m all for an alt tag button for non damage boost tags but being able to tag multiple enemys takes away the only downside this keystone should have
Hard disagree, takes away the charm and challenge of keeping it up for basic powercreep of just hitting a target. It also already stays active for 6 seconds on kill and 3 without consiquence so this sounds like a nerf to me. Just take camouflage if u want it up without much effort. I think the amount u walk for each stack to decay could be slightly lenghtened and maybe damage each stack increased but can we please not get rid of all challenge and charm because emperor forbid we work for some of our buffs. Having the balance be either dueling sword strong or
I really hope I don’t come off like a… pretentous know-it-all dingus but god some of ur ignorance and bad takes tires me espeically when you’re not willing to think out the box with perks and blessings made to encourage it
There’s nothing wrong with the vet’s power level as a class, but the issue is rather that Keystones are intended to be, well…Keystones, a peak ability or feature that a character is fundamentally built around, and if players are routinely skipping that, it means there’s probably something fundamentally wrong with the design.
In addition to instances where players simply opt out of a Keystone, we have a lot of weirdness issues with Keystones, like how Marksman’s Focus actually works best not with powerful precision long range weaponry that it appears to portray, but with close range burst fire.
Oh my gosh yes I know. I also listed brauto as an example. String or no crits still do diddly squat for brauto.
Also it’s weird to pretend you’d use WS over Marksman Focus for Recon or IAG. Now THAT seems like a dubious choice
TBH it’s very weird how condescending you’re acting while not knowing very common acronyms. IJ is Zealot’s keystone, Inexorable Judgement. WS is weapon specialist.
I’ve tried shotguns with WS and my opinion is that keystone is probably a trap for them outside double barrel.
Chill my dude, I’m not complaining Vet is weak or anything, and I already outlined my issue with focus Target, it’s not its effectiveness, it’s how very boring it is. It also doesn’t improve weapon feel at all, it’s just damage for the most part.
Vet has basically nothing in his whole tree to make brauto feel as good as just IJ and dance of death on Zealot and I think that’s pretty lame for a class that is clearly leaning more towards a ranged identity than others.
They’re pointing out it’s super dopey to call it the crabwalk keystone when the only people who do that with it are those who have no idea what they’re doing at all.
Crabwalk isn’t real, don’t malign the keystone for problems it doesn’t actually have.
Ehh, I mean u have a slight point but at the same time again with how powerful vet is I think it’s fair and fairly easy to make a pretty good build with and with them having stam attached I think the intention is more of a marrage with blue skills (like deadshot) then the keystone being the end all be all of the build
…That keystone is on the bullet spay side, the key art and all the skills above would make this pretty clear it’s ment for spray and pray then for percision which the art pieces show.
God I hate acronyms ok just tested them now I got the acronym and it seems to suck on that grouping, let me go back to ur og claim
OOOOoooohhh… yea it seems it’s crit damage is alot lower compared to IAG allowing IJ to take over due to buffing base damage but again focus target exists, pick the ability best for the job
Not really, again free crits every few melee hits sounds pretty great and being able to pump that into say a boss faster makes it a pretty great choice
I’m sorry if that’s how I came across, I genuinely didn’t know and tend not to look too much into acronyms
Fair enough, I’ve tried testing it just now and it seems DB is a bit more inconsitent though I think thats due to ads more then anything
I mean fair but again that’s personal pref, vet isn’t zealot. They shouldn’t play the exact same and the fact u like how one plays doesn’t mean the other has to when it already has an anwser to ur problem that u don’t wanna play with
actually the truth for crabwalk stacks and gold tag. Gold tag can be a blue talent and infinite grenades should probably be the keystone©:trade_mark:. Crabwalk stacks need to just unexist and then survivalist can be turned into a keystone, but then the Warp would open up and materialize angry gamers inside FatsharkCatfish’s house like that one scene from Smile 2 if FS did that.
