Veteran and Champion players need more content

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
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I have a simple argument I want to make. Which is that veteran and champion players don’t have enough content. Of course, everything I say here is simply my sheer opinion.

Why is this important?

I think it is important, because at any time, when someone looks at the lobby browser in Vermintide 2, I believe the greatest number of players are in veteran games. After that comes legend, or recruit, and then champion. To support my arguments, I am only arguing based on my experiences and what I have witnessed.

To properly introduce my feedback, there are some argumentative points I would like to make about veteran and champion content, comparison of legend phase and veteran or champion phase, Winds of Magic, and the method of feedback. I find that there is a great potential for Vermintide 2 to have a lot of players, which would make matchmaking easier and benefit the community as a whole, and one problem is that players usually quit as soon as they reach the veteran or champion phase. This happens because there isn’t enough content for veteran and champion players compared to legend and cataclysm players.

Firstly, veteran and champion players need more content. I pay a lot of attention to the community hub, the lobby browser, and while using the country lobby browser mod where I try to join local games for good ping. What I have noticed while doing these three things, is as mentioned before most players are veteran, and I join these games hoping that one day we can do legend together. I noticed that, for example of the people I do add in veteran when finding them through the lobby browser, they usually quit the game at that stage because there isn’t enough content for them. A player who first joins Vermintide 2 and looks at the challenges, probably won’t think to himself or herself “I am definitely, doing all of these!”. That is because most challenges are for legend and cataclysm players. They might get into the roll of doing challenges once they reach the legend phase, but before that, I don’t think the challenges are appealing. I am glad there are challenges, and it’s a great idea to have so many. However, they focus too much on legend and cataclysm players. There is so much content for legend and cataclysm players, but not for veteran and champion players.

Moreover, it takes a while before people reach the legend phase. What I have noticed is that it takes about 200-300 hours into the game before a player consistently plays legend. Assuming they found a decent team, otherwise it takes maybe 400-600 hours. Recruit players have the map to play through, to witness the graphics, and scenery. Of course, the rat slaying as well. Legend players have a ton of challenges, Fortunes of War, Cataclysm to look forward to, and can reach very far in the weaves. However, what about the veteran and champion players? They may have legend to look forward to but without experiencing legend, why should they? After finishing the recruit phase, being in veteran or champion, players simply replay each map which isn’t fun. Maybe the first time it is, but it depends on every player individually, although as I see it, that is the only content veteran and champion players must look forward to. Personally, the reason I got past the boring veteran and champion phase, is because I really enjoyed building my careers. I liked to get veteran coffers and champion chests for resources to craft all the gear required for building my careers. It’s the only reason I kept playing Vermintide 2, until the legend phase. The legend phase is when the game is fun. Since there is so much content. Especially with the release of Winds of Magic (WOM).

Secondly, Winds of Magic (WOM) is a great dlc, but it was released way to early. Before I get to my point, I can tell Fatshark worked hard on WoM, but a dlc like this should not have been released so early. That is because one major requirement for WoM to be enjoyable is that you must have four players. One may argue that weaves can be done with two or three or even one player only. However, such players will only get so far into the weaves. The more players, the more you can complete more weaves. Cataclysm is a very hard game mode, which also requires four players. Again, one may argue that it’s do-able with only three or two players, but those players must be very good at the game. The veteran and champion players will not benefit much. They may be able to get new weapons, but that is about it. Paying the price of WoM for only the weapons is not worth it. I’m not suggesting any nerfs or anything like that, but I am suggesting that it was released too early because there aren’t enough experienced players for such a dlc, which is why veteran and champion players need more content so they can reach the legend cataclysm phase.

Thirdly, As mentioned before, I know Fatshark is hard working, which I do appreciate, but I find that the work on Vermintide 2 is becoming inefficient. For example, Fatshark developers reading the Fatshark forums and tailoring their games to players needs and wants. It is a great work effort, but in my opinion, most players on the forums are in the legend and cataclysm phase. Therefore, when tailoring the game according to their needs and wants, the game becomes better for the legend and cataclysm players, but not for the veteran and champion players. This is inefficient, because when considering the population of potential Vermintide 2 players and the population of legend and cataclysm players, the number of potential legend and cataclysm players, such as veteran and champion players, is a much greater number. Thus, the work effort targets a lesser population and therefore it is inefficient.

Based on my experience, Fatshark needs to focus more on veteran and champion players. There is already a ton of content for the legend and cataclysm players, which is great. However, as mentioned before, potential legend and cataclysm players quit during the veteran and champion phase. So, there should be more content for the veteran and champion players.

Again, everything I have said is based on my experience and what I have witnessed. I do not mean to offend anyone or rant with my post. I simply made an argument on what I think would really improve Vermintide 2. Also, I think players need to know that legend and cataclysm will be much more interesting. I could go on about suggesting more improvements, but I don’t want this post to become too long and deviate from my main point, about giving veteran and champion players more content.

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God, that was long to read. Define “content”, as veteran/champion players do have access to the same “content” a legend player does. Including “Veteran” or “Champion” Weaves.
Try to get on point faster, because I didn’t even finish.

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I am not sure I get it.
Was this all about the fact that there are challenges that can be completed only on legend or cataclysm difficulty?

People don’t play Legend or Cata because of challenges, nor do these challenges provide any “content” for those that play them honestly. If FS was to add more “content” then it should be across all difficulties and not just veteran and champion.

Or maybe I misunderstood your post.

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Is this a longform request for more maps?

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You circle around a bit but I agree with the overall point. I don’t think WoM was released too early, we have a ton of Legend and Cataclysm players and the most vocal part of the community is composed of those. I think Legend & Cataclysm has enough of a playerbase to warrant it and make it worth.

But it’s true that, with the bulk of the playerbase being in Vet & Champ, Fatshark should not abandon that skill level and more universal content should be done.

However, I think we’re already heading in the right direction with this. Daily & Weekly quests provide rewards regardless of difficulty, which means shillings and the overall cosmetics grind is completely separate from difficulty. I think that’s great.
Maps are always enjoyed by all players of all difficulties.
A good step could be, perhaps, adding a difficulty-less version of all the Legend challenges? They could give a commendation chest each. IDK.

However, you’re not giving specific examples of what kind of content aimed at veteran and champion players we should have, Greyknight. You’ve been thinking about this the most out of us, most likely. The best way to go about this is to provide specific examples. What kind of things would’ve aided your interest when you were at vet & champ difficulty?

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From what i understood, content = achievements I’m not super familiar with every achievement, but i’m pretty sure there are not alot of exclusive legend cata challenges and less for vet champ. I think the reason most play is for loot, challenge (deeds, twitch), or because the combat system is just so fun.

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Btw I do think this whole post is a troll but hey =p

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I think you’ve got cause and effect mixed up here, OP.

Putting the target audience failure of weaves aside, there’s no content in Legend and above that would keep them playing. There is no content that could (realistically) be added that would keep them playing, either. They stop because they don’t enjoy the game enough to play the existing content over and over in different ways while challenging themselves to become better, which is essentially what people on Legend and Cata are doing for hundreds or even thousands of hours.

New maps wouldn’t change this, since you get used to them pretty fast. New careers, weapons etc. wouldn’t change this, for the same reason (and they are never appealing to everyone). Challenges? That’s entertainment for a few hours. Weaves? You can already play the same weaves as everyone else, just at a lower difficulty level, and the team issue affects everyone.

Even if they introduced endless, randomly generated levels for every difficulty, these very same people you see quitting would still stop playing after some tens of hours.

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Summary

And don’t forget the title.

It’s thirteen times (the combo of content/not having smth and veteran and champion players), which is a bit disturbing, but still could be coincidence.

I’m guessing that’s why you think this a troll, right? You might have a point there, but english is not everyone’s first or even second language, so you should cut people some slack.

But i think we all get his main point.

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This is the first time Greyknight654 has posted

And the no-answer part don’t help either, to think that it’s not.

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Well, he repeated himself quite often but the point he wants to made comes across. However, in terms of content I am not sure that there is so much difference for Legend and Veteran players:

  • not sure you can count a higher difficulty new content per se, so Legend and Veteran are similar in that regard. Cataclysm is a bit special as it mixes the game up a bit more and also changes the approach one should take towards the game slightly

  • Okri’s challenges are basically double anyway. Each mission based challenge is one time without difficulty and one time Legend based and for the Helmgart missions Cataclysm based also. Though, there are some challenges only for Champion+ (100 games, Helmgart armor) or Legend (Helmgart armor) although again, the same challenge can be found for Veteran

  • He has a point for the Weaves as the content you get there is direct proportional to your skill level. The farer you come the more you see

So I am not sure what kind of content he has visualized. Because maps or similar is content for everyone and not Veteran/Champion alone.

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I might rephrase the post: “Vet and Champ players need better reasons to be engaged” aka “something worth working toward”. This is what I tried to address in the Engagement post. Veterans and Champ players are more casual and make up a significant portion of the playerbase (silent majority, likely) since as with any game, the most vocal tend to be those that play the most.

Basically, Vet & Champ players need reasonable goals to grind for to keep them engaged and learning. Since the loot system is 100% RNG, having a goal to grind for doesn’t really exist outside leveling up. Putting some sort of carrot (red dust) that they can make regular, consistent progress toward (example I used was red dust deed crafting for scrap in other post) is key to keeping them playing.

Pure RNG rewards loses more players than it keeps. It works in mobile microtransaction games, because there one whale is worth 50K other customers on average, but that’s not the case here.

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Maby he wants somthing like the helmgard challenges for every difficulty , like vet players to earn something for them , some chests and a trimmed down version of the frame like you got it with fow. Would be good idea for those beginners I think, at least it wouldn’t hurt anybody.
Edit: and yes deed crafting or making challenges where you maby earn one red dust would be nice as well maby 5 of them so they can craft like 1 weapon with those

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Then again those are issues what people in Legend/Cata also face so i don’t really get why you think champion/vet players only need lets just say these improvements.

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I frankly think a more reasonable carrot than RNG is needed at all levels, which is why I wrote a post on it (craft deeds, and some deeds include red dust as a reward - visible on the deed and mission).

Pure RNG rewards loses more players than it keeps. It works in mobile microtransaction games, because there one whale is worth 50K other customers on average, but that’s not the case here.

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“Vet and Champ players need better reasons to be engaged” is a very true point, I agree with it.

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It is my plan to start a separate topic on suggestions for veteran and champion if this thread is successful enough. I will post it later.

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I agree with your point about new maps not resolving the issue that I address in my initial post. As for careers and weapons, I may just make a new topic based on that if someone else has not done that already in terms of suggesting ideas for veteran and champion players. If this thread gives them enough attention of-course.

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I did not mean for content = achievement. I meant content as in for example for legend and cataclysm players there is cataclysm, weaves, fow. Mainly what there is available for players “to do” in veteran and champion stage which is very little compared to legend and cataclysm. I hope this makes sense.

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That is a good point about Fatshark going in the right direction. I think if Fatshark were to consider the veteran and champion players they would scale further into the right direction. Unfortunately, the purpose of my post was to recommend, as you said, that Fatshark needs to go into the right direction. My example in my initial post was the efficiency of targeting a larger population of players. However, if I am to suggest ideas for veteran and champion, I would do that on a new topic. Before doing that, I want to see the responses of my initial post whether going for veteran and champion content is a good idea. I hope that makes sense.