Vermintide2 Overcharge System In Darktide

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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… with a twist.

First, shout out to @Khorne_Dawg for mentioning the Deepwood staff lockout. This got me curious in Vermintide’s Overcharge system, which I believe is particularly interesting in how it places reasonable limitations on staves that would otherwise have infinite usage.

This topic will begin by focusing on Passive Quell, then Active Quell, followed by how the “Overcharge” system would interact with Psyker’s two main offensive Combat Abilities and potential Talent additions towards the end that could spice up Psyker playstyles.

For the “Overcharge” system in Darktide, why not use an existing mechanic that already exists? In addition to being thematically accurate as the lure of Chaos entices Psykers with temptations of power, most Darktide players are already familiar with Corruption.

Anyway, without further ado this is what the proposed changes would look like:

I. Passive Quell - The time it takes to passively quell Peril is now doubled. This helps to balance out the infinite ammo aspect of staves, and makes it easier for Psykers to “ride the high Peril” in melee combat.

II. Active Quell - Actively quelling Peril above critical Peril (75%+) now creates Corruption. Active Quelling includes staff quelling, Venting Shriek, and Scrier’s Gaze uses above 75% Peril.

Corruption can be avoided altogether by actively quelling using any of the 3 above methods before a Psyker reaches 75% Peril, or passively quelling through melee combat after 75% Peril has been reached.

Venting Shriek and Scrier’s Gaze create 10% Corruption of the current wound (150 default HP, 75HP per wound × .10 = 7.5 HP Corrupted), ONLY when used above 75% Peril.

In Practice: For Venting Shriek, this translates to 7.5 HP on a Shriek above 75% Peril. Not bad, of course this adds up if Shriek is consistently spammed at 75+ Peril but still considering an 8 stack Creeping Flames is enough to burn away entire chaff hordes, it’s still a bargain for damage output.

For Scrier’s uses using Warp Unbound, .25 Corruption for every 1 Peril is generated during Unbound’s 10 second Overload protection period. **Corruption generation stops when the current wound is filled for the duration of that Combat Ability activation, or when a Psyker stops using their staff to generate Peril (**meaning Crystalline Will - details below - can hedge against Corruption).

In Practice: A Psyker with two wounds gets hit with 32.5 Corruption if they generate an additional 100 Peril during the 10s Warp Unbound period, up to a maximum of 75 Corruption (50% HP) if they really push it, which IMO is fair considering all the potential Finesse and Crit Chance boons Psykers get during Warp Unbound.

Corruption is also no longer just a negative status effect for Psyker, it now has increased function through various talents in the tree that lean into Psyker’s high risk, high reward style and potentially raises the skill ceiling for Psykers seeking additional challenge.

Corruption Related Talents:

Rack and Ruin: For every 10% health consumed by Corruption, gain 1 stack of Heinous Frenzy. For each stack of Heinous Frenzy, gain +5% attack speed. Max 3 stacks.

Blood Alchemy: For 5s after a push attack, your melee attacks inflict Bleed on enemies. For every tic of Bleed in 5m, .25 Corruption is turned into health.

Crystalline Will: Overloading through Perils of the Warp no longer knocks you down, but you still take the appropriate Corruption Damage. +2 Wounds.

Unchained: -8.5% charge time and +5% Peril generation on staff Secondary attacks for every 10% health consumed by Corruption. (This potentially frees up Warp Flurry, but at Talent Point cost and increased risk due to Corruption).

Dissapate: For every 10% of Health Consumed by Corruption, you now Quell 2.5% Peril on melee kill. Stacks 3 times.

How does it all fit together?

Corruption now punishes those who use staves recklessly and when combined with the proposed +100% Passive Peril Quell time will disincentivize staff spamming for newer Psykers, which is appropriate for staves that offer considerably strong ranged attacks with infinite ammo.

Again, Corruption can be avoided altogether by actively quelling staves before they reach 75% Peril, or passively quelling staves through melee after 75% Peril has been reached.

On the other hand, players who go into melee combat with just shy of 1/3 of their health missing can be generously rewarded with additional Peril quelling on melee kill, reduced charge time on staves, and increased melee attack speed - with a reliable means to manage the Corruption they take.

While it may not always seem like it, I know Fatshark actively reads the forums and I’m excited to see what the dev team has in store for Psyker, Veteran and Zealot Talent tree adjustments in the future, so with that said let’s hear some thoughts below! :fire:

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Why? Genuinely what would compel someone to think that this is a good idea?

The only staff that could be argued as over performing is the Inferno staff, a harsh unneeded nerf like this on a class that’s incentivised to be building and dumping peril regularly above 75% (since that’s the whole survivability loop) would just kill staffs entirely.

It would also screw over the other classes as there’d be an even higher competition for ammo since guns would be far better than staffs.

This is just creating a massive problem then offering some really garbage solutions with those talents. The Psyker is currently it’s own distinct class, this would just make them Zealot-lite without any of the stuff that make Zealot work.

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“The only staff that could be argued as over performing is the Inferno staff, a harsh unneeded nerf like this on a class that’s incentivised to be building and dumping peril regularly above 75% (since that’s the whole survivability loop) would just kill staffs entirely.”

7.5 Corruption on spamming Shriek or 32.5 Corruption on going ham with Unbound Voidblast/Voidstrike, when there would be means to regulate the Corruption via additional talents that would also provide boons for taking Corruption or avoid it entirely by engaging in melee is a harsh nerf?

Interesting. I suppose after zero cost for game breaking boon Talents like the Arbites Concussive made their way into the game, by comparison Talents that give drawbacks for infinite cleave DoTs are now a “harsh nerf”. :man_shrugging:

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I may be just forgetting but it has been a while since I have played psyker, but did you just change Crystaline will to give +2 wounds, sorry i just forget, I do like the idea of this but I would be unsure where to place it in the tree but it sounds fun, always thought psyker didn’t have a enough mechanics around being tempeted by warp and stuff

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Because current Psyker has lost almost all its original release identity, and peril currently could be barely even called a mechanic it’s so trivial to manage.

I’m not saying I agree with all OP’s ideas but I can at least appreciate the vision of bringing some actual resource management back to Psyker.

I’ll reiterate again current core Psyker mechanics are a design travesty that have only become significantly less interesting since launch.

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Yeah, Crystalline Will doesn’t really offer much utility as it is right now outside of brand new players, even then there’s better options. Wound is a very expensive Curio for Psyker considering the alternatives of +16% Toughness and +3 Stam, with these talents Psyker would have more of a use for wounds as well.

These talents would be above Empowered Psionics mostly, to be easier to access for both Crit builds and Warp Siphon builds.

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Yeah that makes putting it above empowered psyonics, thanks formthe clarification on Crystaline

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“Yeah that makes putting it above empowered psyonics, thanks formthe clarification on Crystaline”

No problem! I do agree it would be very cool for Fatshark to lean into the Corrupted Psyker more somehow. In addition to passive “reloading” through melee to avoid Corruption, a Beacon of Purity Zealot could heavily reduce the Corruption Psyker recieves from reckless warp use. (with buffs to Beacon, perhaps anti Tox Gas Toughness Damage, or boons to melee stats for members in Coherency when they have no Corruption)

Also a bit of a tangent here but what if Corruption were flipped so that it starts on the left side of the healthbar instead of the right, and as long as it was cleansed before it consumed a wound, no health would be lost. If it did consume a wound then it would count towards a knockdown turning into “capture” and require medicaid/stim to remove

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I think Quelling should remove toughness instead, just like plasma gun

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I understand Corruption is a flawed mechanic - not very popular - that could use some adjustments, but going the Corruption route would give Psyker so much more flavor than just toughness damage on Quell, and would create more synergistic opportunities for new Talents to shine IMO. I do admit, the toughness damage route would probably require less dev time, but if Psyker is in need of a Talent tree update anyway might as well go for it.

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Question. Have you considered the impact of corruption resistance curios and in fact how much your suggested changes would likely push those properties as meta on Psyker?

Not saying that’s necessarily a bad thing, but curious since a lot of people kinda forget those curio properties exist.

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Thanks for the recognition, homie! :face_with_steam_from_nose:

Quelling should take 30% longer, at the very least.

I have an alternate proposal for such a mechanic. A rework to Crystalline Will. Crystalline Will would negate any Damage you take from Quelling, but you gain Corruption instead. Basically, your idea would become an alternative for Psykers.

My opinion is that Quietude is EXTREMELY problematic in its current form, and this is compounded by Force Staves not Damaging you when you Quell too often.

Quietude: “Replenish 5% Toughness for each 10% of Peril Quelled.”

Quelling at Critical (>75%) Peril should DAMAGE your Toughness, not REPLENISH it. Quietude would be better off as something like “Replenish x% Toughness for each x% of Peril dissipated WITHOUT Quelling.”

Allowing your Peril to dissipate on its own while engaging in Melee more frequently would be encouraged, whilst excessively relying on your Force Staff would be met with punishment.

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Trauma (is it called Voidblast now) staff and Warp Unbound Voidstrike are both op as well, even if not as ludicrous as the Inferno staff. If we want to generalize it heavily Trauma is infinite ammo Rumbler and Voidstrike is infinite ammo plasma.

Surge staff is the worst, but left click spam on it is still pretty strong for how incredibly low effort it is.

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“Have you considered the impact of corruption resistance curios and in fact how much your suggested changes would likely push those properties as meta on Psyker?”

I hadn’t given that curio perk much thought tbh, though I do see as how it could rise in popularity among newer Psykers who don’t fully understand how strong Psyker’s stamina regen is and how much of a monster they can be in melee with the right build.

I’d imagine more experienced Psykers who want to melee focus would probably pick up Dissapate along with Rack & Ruin for that extra melee survivability/damage. Dissapate would help offset the health lost to Corruption, though how effective it would be in practice remains to be seen.

@Khorne_Dawg

“Quelling should take 30% longer, at the very least.”

Why not double the length of current passive Quell? It could encourage experienced Psykers to use melee more often to “ride” Warp Rider longer, especially if the alternative was panic smashing Shriek for a bit of Corruption (if Corruption on active Quell above 75% was implemented).

“Quietude is EXTREMELY problematic in its current form. This is also compounded by Force Staves not Damaging you when you Quell too often.”

We do agree then that active Quell should damage Psykers a bit, we just have different views on how it should. I just think going the Corruption route would spice things up a bit more for Psyker, especially if there were reasonable means to avoid and manage the Corruption, with a bit of Talent allocation and/or care not to redline Peril so much.

If a Psyker wanted to avoid Corruption entirely, all they would need to do is switch to melee when above 75% Peril, making use of Warp Rider for extra melee damage. Because the length of time required for passive Peril would be doubled in this scenario, Quietude wouldn’t be as strong as it is now, unless the Psyker opted to take Dissapate - extra 2.5% Quell on melee kill - 3x stacks total, one for each 10% health corrupted, Mettle or Crack of Bone.

The other option would be the manage route, and would really only apply to careless Psykers panic smashing Shriek/Gaze to avoid Perils, or Psykers intentionally building Corruption for buffs from Unchained, Rack and Ruin, or Dissapate.

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Corruption in a vacuum is too permanent a penalty for interacting with a main class feature. It feels way too punishing for a class that is already relatively glassy unless there is a way to handle corruption inherently within the psyker class tree too.

I agree there should be a cost to quelling, but corruption as the cost feels like it’s too much.

It’s a similar reason to why the Mechwarrior games never really implemented the sliding heat penalties that the tabletop has, since it made any high-heat loadouts way more work in micro-managing the heat for practically no difference in overall performance (at least before the existence of heavy lasers, anyway).

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I’m still a big fan of how they handled this at release. Force weapons are stronger than the normie weapons Psyker has available, but the normie weapons have inherently higher passive quell speeds. I really don’t know why they ever moved away from that system, it was vastly superior to just giving every weapon stupid fast passive quelling.

Quietude would be fine probably if it only applied to passive quelling, just some nice albeit slow passive regen while your Psyker is “cooling off” so to speak.

I do think you might need to raise base stats of Psyker a bit if you wanted to commit to corruption as a core part of Psyker gameplay. Like they probably could use a slightly bigger base toughness pool and maybe one extra base stamina as some compensation.

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:index_pointing_up: Yeah, that’s what I meant by this:

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Ah yes, I didn’t read your comment particularly thoroughly so missed that sorry.

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Don’t apologise, you’re fine. I ramble a little bit, so it’s no wonder! :joy:

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“Crystalline Will would negate any Damage you take from Quelling, but you gain Corruption instead. Basically, your idea would become an alternative for Psykers”

That’s pretty good. :thinking:

That would allow for the potential additional Talents that reward the high risk of Corruption, while the more forgiving form of Toughness damage on active Quell would be available for Psykers who don’t want to allocate extra points towards Corruption focused boons.

@alsozara

“Quietude would be fine probably if it only applied to passive quelling, just some nice albeit slow passive regen while your Psyker is “cooling off” so to speak.”

Agreed, it could even be added in the description so it reads: Replenish 5% Toughness for each 10% of Peril quelled passively.

“I do think you might need to raise base stats of Psyker a bit if you wanted to commit to corruption as a core part of Psyker gameplay. Like they probably could use a slightly bigger base toughness pool and maybe one extra base stamina as some compensation.”

Perhaps that may well be the case. It’s hard to know for sure though without seeing how it plays out in game.

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