Vermintide is looking more and more like a pay-to-play game

[Frostysir]

@Throne_of_Rats

I see a problem with engi, namely that he’s kinda meh outside of his weapons. The base careers are better for any role and even perform way better with his own weapons, which is highly abnormal. He does have a long range drakegun, but it’s inferior in all aspects to the actual drakegun. And yet this is considered a premium career?

I mean, if just comparing careers with specific loadouts then a lot of careers become extremely “meh”.Longbow waystalker? Outclassed by BH, huntsman or boltstaff…battlewiz i think it was. Swiftbow waystalker? Outclassed by not just a number of other weapons for horde clear but also hagbane in her own damn arsenal.

…And then there is a lot more to be said for various weapons just stomping most other options that the respective careers can use into obscurity due to just being better at everything or missing a massive downside.

Pretty sure all careers, except possibly Bardin(coghammer?), have a weapon or two like that among their melee choices at least. Which is not a sign of good balance, even more so after its been like so from the start.

@Throne_of_Rats

Bottom line is balancing won’t be perfect at release,

Problem is, some stuff like hagbane,masterwork pistol or even just BH dropping bosses to oblivion in a heartbeat has been around for “a while” now. And Fathskark has made very, very contradictory balancing decisions in the past that leaves serious doubt in regards to what the heck they are trying to do.

Crucial updates like bugfixes come in at a glacial pace, let alone balance updates…and when they do come they somehow make another mess.

[Saryk]

@Sevensreturn

The base game is insane value but they’re charging for all of the things. New maps-paid, new weapons-paid, new game mode-paid, new difficulty setting-paid, new hats-paid, new classes-paid.

Did you pay for Drachenfels maps ?
Also, what exactly in your mind entitles you (or us as playerbase) to free content ?

The idea of the game being P2P is wrong, but I’m open to hear that it’s getting expensive to own everything - cosmetics still excluded of my arguments.
The idea of the game being P2W is ridiculous, unless you’re somehow playing competitively against other players for green circles on scoreboard. (Reasonably) anyone can beat any (reasonable) map with any (reasonable) weapon on any difficulty. That being said, I’m open to hear the argument that there is some power creep going on, just as there has been a whole thread last year about that.

To keep the discussion on topic, which should just be “the game is getting expensive”, I kind of agree. I don’t mean to say that DLCs should be cheaper or even free, but I’d hate to see Vermintide become one of those games with hundreds of DLCs for hundreds of dollars.
Fatshark could make steam bundles with the game and all maps DLCs, a bundle with all DLC carreers, and perhaps even lower the base game’s cost a bit.

[Saryk]

@Saryk

(Reasonably) anyone can beat any (reasonable) map with any (reasonable) weapon on any difficulty.

Meaning any decent player playing at their level of difficulty with any orange weapons, not Noob McNoobface playing Cata FoW with blacksmith’s weapons - cause I see the bad faith arguments coming…

[zaru]

@FrivolousWizard

Outcast Engineer is outshined in practically every scenario, whether specific or general.
Boss damage at range? Waystalker, Huntsman, Bounty Hunter, Battle Wizard; all either outperform or function on a similar level. Granted all of them use ammunition that’s unlimited, but doesn’t require such a charge up time.
Team damage buffs? WHC and Huntsman both outclass the engineer, even Grail Knight has a chance to not only grant the buff, but also give it as straight power rather than a local ranged damage buff.
Powerful special deletion? Outclassed by any hero with a crossbow or longbow
Horde deletion? Iron breaker does it better, while still having a real ultimate. Swiftbow waystalker has better range, dodge, and armor damage, all with instant firing, but less overall DPS output. Given the other factors she probably clears it faster however.
Stagger? Piston power is amazing, but still outclassed by the Battle Wizard having two staggers, Foot Knight having a massive AOE knockdown on Chaos Warriors, Mercenary/WHC shout hitting all enemies, IB taunting and running off.
Which leaves the final category:
Bombs.
The bombs which are entirely random, often in better hands with other team members. But OE can hold 3. His kit’s strongest point is holding three bombs. Which are never guaranteed!

Honestly if the mini gun is going to be such a slow and clunky weapon it should probably have double the maximum ammunition, or half the ammo cost, or 50% increased damage. As is it doesn’t feel like an ult. It feels like a second ranged weapon. A crappy but unlimited ammo ranged weapon. One that’s either outclassed by the flamer of IB or one that’s outclassed by Longbow WS or Repeater Pistol Huntsman. But surprise! Both of those weapons have better burst and mobility while still maintaining unlimited ammo.

Reading posts like this, it increasingly feels like people can’t wrap their head around the point of engineer being that he can do both things (single target and horde clearing) reasonably well in different combinations of ranged weapons and crank gun setups. The whole DESIGN of him is to not have a simple “ult” but essentially a secondary ranged weapon that is more involved.
He can’t be “the best” in any single category without being straight overpowered, why would you ever ask for that unless you WANT Engineer to be Pay to Win?

Sure, as he is now you might run into a wall on super difficult modded content or solo/clutch attempts where melee survivability and minmaxed roles are essential, but over 90% of players don’t need that on official realm.

There are things that could and should be changed about Engineer (crank gun uptime/QoL, survivability, etc.), but his core concept of having multiple decent options at the same time and more than just a generic career skill is interesting and fun. People who complain about Engineer not being the best at literally everything are people I hope I never have to play with because their way of looking at the game is narrower than the ravines on Athel Yenlui.

[WhereIsBaoDur]

@Saryk

The idea of the game being P2P is wrong, but I’m open to hear that it’s getting expensive to own everything - cosmetics still excluded of my arguments.

My point is close to that. Specifically, it’s not about the sheer amount of DLCs (as it’s a given after a long period of time) but rather their pervasiveness.

I perhaps should have stressed the “looking” part of the title. The characters’ DLCs in particular don’t sit well with me, as they appear in the very hero selection screen, making that quite in-your-face, while adding very little - this is of course subjective - to the game, especially for new players. The fact that the challenges are locked behind an additional paywall is something new players might not care for, on the other hand, but it’s very disrespectful for veterans which will see their 100% completion go to waste (which was also the main argument behind not adding new steam achievements to the game…)

I did a comparison with Gwent, because it’s the other game I play with that amount of “advertising”, but there’s two important differences: it’s a free to play game, and the money goes towards cosmetic stuff, there’s absolutely nothing you are locked out of. I wouldn’t say VT2 fares too well in the comparison.

Regardless of personal opinion there’s the fact that VT2 beloved predecessor had a different approach to monetization - nothing was truly locked, but you’d get an easier time playing and unlocking stuff with DLCs - and I think the departure from that deserves a discussion.

EDIT: also, while there certainly already are things I’m unhappy with, this post was meant as a reflection upon the direction things are going, rather than a flat out criticism. I’m really worrying about how things are going to look, and that is putting me off recommending a game I love.

[Throne_of_Rats]

@Frostysir

I mean, if just comparing careers with specific loadouts then a lot of careers become extremely “meh”.

I was just comparing base package Bardin to premium Bardin and trying to understand why it’s pay 2 win/play.

[zaru]

@WhereIsBaoDur

The fact that the challenges are locked behind an additional paywall is something new players might not care for, on the other hand, but it’s very disrespectful for veterans which will see their 100% completion go to waste (which was also the main argument behind not adding new steam achievements to the game…)

I’ve seen a surprising amount of people upset to some extent about not having 100% completion in Okri’s book due to DLC.

I mean come on… at the point where that upsets someone, they’ve got issues that go beyond the game. Some level of OCD that isn’t really Fatshark’s problem to solve.

[Saryk]

I understand completionism, but if I’m invested enough into a game to want 100%, I’m ok with paying 5 more euros in support to the devs.

[Frostysir]

@Throne_of_Rats

I was just comparing base package Bardin to premium Bardin and trying to understand why it’s pay 2 win/play.

Then compare Grail Knight to merc and pray do tell, do you honestly think the good old merc has anywhere near the impact/influence that a Grail Knight with his blessings do? Especially if said blessings are activated early on in a run?

I do not think it applies to engineer hence i did not mention it, but GK looks an awful lot like p2w as i see it to be honest, and the same can be said for stuff like masterwork pistol or Fire flail…and it´d be especially ironic if BH got his boss killing nerfed while GK kept his. A possibility that would not surprise me at all if it happened.

[Throne_of_Rats]

@Frostysir

Then compare Grail Knight to merc and pray do tell, do you honestly think the good old merc has anywhere near the impact/influence that a Grail Knight with his blessings do? Especially if said blessings are activated early on in a run?

Merc is by far Kruber’s strongest career when it comes to overall battle effectiveness and team support. Huntsman can out-DPS a GK by a dramatic margin, obviously in ranged combat. I don’t play him that much, but I’ve seen people delete Cataclysm monsters with a handful of shots. FK is kinda mid-range/mediocre in the damage department, but for people who like the shielded knight archetype he is the absolute best at that job. GK is a fun career that blends a bunch of melee styles together, but he doesn’t in any way overshadow the other careers. Nor does he break the game or make it significantly easier, so I’m not exactly sure what the problem is. I’d certainly like more premium careers closer to GK than OE though.

[Saryk]

@Throne_of_Rats

I was just comparing base package Bardin to premium Bardin and trying to understand why it’s pay 2 win/play.

Isn’t the very fact you find Engi underwhelming a proof that Engi isn’t “pay to win” as you say ?

@Frostysir

GK looks an awful lot like p2w

Stop using “P2W” as it makes no sense. GK looks like power creep, sure, if you say so, but not P2W.

[Adelion]

@WhereIsBaoDur

Regardless of personal opinion there’s the fact that VT2 beloved predecessor had a different approach to monetization - nothing was truly locked, but you’d get an easier time playing and unlocking stuff with DLCs - and I think the departure from that deserves a discussion.

Yea, but Vermintide 1 was far more limited in what they presented as DLC. And the maps and Beastmen still follow the same approach. What changed though is the availability of weapons. Let’s ignore Cataclysm and Weaves for a moment and concentrate on weapons and careers.

I think careers are especially troublesome. How would you follow the Vermintide 1 approach with them? You can pick Grail Knight if the Lobby Host bought it? Would you be okay if some of the Weekly Events would be changed to a promotional style? So every two to three months there is a weekly event where you automatically play one of the DLC careers (or weapons) with a predetermined set-up. This way you would still have a limited access to this content and people could try it out.

@zaru

I mean come on… at the point where that upsets someone, they’ve got issues that go beyond the game. Some level of OCD that isn’t really Fatshark’s problem to solve.

For Okri’s challenges i literally don’t care. If it would be Steam achievements I would be upset too. So I can understand it to a certain level.

[Frostysir]

@Throne_of_Rats

Merc is by far Kruber’s strongest career when it comes to overall battle effectiveness

How though? Grail Knight does more damage and can anti any chaos warrior or even a boss that comes up with conc pot. The only time Merc is better is if we are talking above cata purely for his shout staggering the much more threatening hordes there.

Huntsman does not out DPS GK, not unless the GK is playing like a complete tank. And huntsman does not anti bosses that quickly-

@Throne_of_Rats

, but for people who like the shielded knight archetype he is the absolute best at that job

Sad thing about that build is the fact that he´s extremely prone to both being drowned in hordes he cant clear and he lacks the proper lethality of a Knight. And while i appriciate just how much help he can be for a team he is on the other hand, extremely reliant on said team.

@Throne_of_Rats

Nor does he break the game or make it significantly easier

That teamwide regen+powerbuff+str pot spam /extra blessing does not make it significantly easier you say?Well…you do you i suppose.

@Saryk

Stop using “P2W” as it makes no sense. GK looks like power creep, sure, if you say so, but not P2W.

You get the career via purchase, and with any decent luck you get either the regen or power blessing which makes any run a lot easier while also getting a powerhouse career that handles hordes&bosses alike to go along.

Sure you dont need to literally pay to win the game, but paying to get this one in and with just a little luck makes any run just that much easier. Powercreep bought with real money.

[Throne_of_Rats]

@Frostysir

How though? Grail Knight does more damage and can anti any chaos warrior or even a boss that comes up with conc pot. The only time Merc is better is if we are talking above cata purely for his shout staggering the much more threatening hordes there.

Merc can reliably provide health, DR, stagger and even attack speed for the entire team. He can also cleave through anything (including multiple chaos warriors) and has access to the handgun. Of course gk does more damage on a given attack, but if he didn’t do that there wouldn’t really be any point to him existing, since merc does everything else better.

@Frostysir

Huntsman does not out DPS GK, not unless the GK is playing like a complete tank.

You should maybe watch Guz, Newtype or other players who really know how to huntsman when they go on a quest to oneshot cata monsters.

@Frostysir

Sad thing about that build is the fact that he´s extremely prone to both being drowned in hordes he cant clear and he lacks the proper lethality of a Knight.

Obviously he lacks damage, but the point is that an option exists for people who want to play tank effectively. It’s not something that I want to do unless I’m memeing and it’s probably not an “optimal” way to play, but the core option exists for the people who want it.

@Frostysir

That teamwide regen+powerbuff+str pot spam /extra blessing does not make it significantly easier you say?Well…you do you i suppose.

Nope. The powerbuff doesn’t really achieve anything if you already got your breakpoints setup right. And if you got them completely wrong it likely won’t reach anything significant on its own. Regen is good only when it isn’t really needed, i.e. people aren’t taking damage in the first place. Strength potions are cool I guess, but it’s not like you pop them around every corner. Also you don’t really have control over what you are getting so it’s not like you can plan around them unless you decide to reset runs until you get what you want.

[Incandescent]

it doesn’t really matter, class and weapon balance isn’t so out of whack that any official realm content requires DLC of any kind to complete (aside from weaves and cata which obviously require WoM to access but that’s not a balancing concern)

[Frostysir]

@Throne_of_Rats

Merc can reliably provide health, DR, stagger and even attack speed for the entire team.

His shout has 90 seconds cooldown, reliable and consistent sure but nowhere near that fast. His damage reduction buff for the team…lasts 10 seconds? Attackspeed is 10%? …Sure its decent but not at all amazing.

Cleave through anything? Utter bullcrap for any weapon that isnt the greatsword and who the heck uses that? Someone surely but its like seeing a blue moon. And heck even with weapons like Halberd where he can cleave stormvermin he cant actually stagger them in a mixed horde so he ends up doing fairly badly with it there…unlike the new fancy brettonian sword.

GuzT? Saw a vid on him soloing against the grain from last year and sure he killed a stormfiend pretty fast, not not silly fast at all. He also uses the longbow which isnt all that popular on huntsman anymore either, at least the last 10 i saw all used repeater instead.

@Throne_of_Rats

who want to play tank effectively.

Ironbreaker? ._. He even has the taunt.

Footknight with a shield can play a stagger machine sure, but outside his ult…is he really that amazing at it relative to other shield uses such as indeed Ironbreaker, Handmaiden or even that weird AF engineer build that can stunlock multiple CW´s?

@Throne_of_Rats

The powerbuff doesn’t really achieve anything if you already got your breakpoints setup right.

.,.,I shall abstain from any great amounts of sarcasm, i simply greatly, greatly, disagree. Many many builds benefit extremely well from more power.

@Throne_of_Rats

Regen is good only when it isn’t really needed, i.e. people aren’t taking damage in the first place

…Its only good when people are not taking damage? What? Then why the heck did you say that merc is any good? Temp health and damage reduction are only good when people are eating hits too. And normal health is superior to temp health for any but zealot.

And seriously, permanent regen always beats a 10 seconds damage reduction boost as long as you arent outright dying without the DR within those 10 seconds.

@Throne_of_Rats

Also you don’t really have control over what you are getting so it’s not like you can plan around them unless you decide to reset runs until you get what you want.

No indeed, but you are statistically very likely to score either power, regen or ult CDR. With good luck you get two of them and its a finely done deal. And on cata you get practically one str pot for every horde or two which comes in pretty handy for mixed ones.

[Toastklotzi]

I think the pricemodels are good in v2 for the amount of playtime you can have with this not even full price game if you compare it to other games its really nice to see how many options and content you get .
Everything you can get is totally optional if someone feels the need to buy stuff cause they think they cant play alot of hours without it well then its thier problem. why do ppl deserve to get stuff for free that others worked on ? You wont find complains like that in any other business than gaming .
There are already enough ppl that should learn how to play legend proper and by the time you do can play cata cause you have the map ,character and game mechanic knowledge you have spend enough playtime to make buying cata a reasonable thing.

I would maby like to have more maps but everything else is fine for me.
Great job here Fatshark

[Throne_of_Rats]

@Frostysir

His shout has 90 seconds cooldown, reliable and consistent sure but nowhere near that fast. His damage reduction buff for the team…lasts 10 seconds? Attackspeed is 10%? …Sure its decent but not at all amazing.

Right.

@Frostysir

Cleave through anything? Utter bullcrap for any weapon that isnt the greatsword and who the heck uses that? Someone surely but its like seeing a blue moon. And heck even with weapons like Halberd where he can cleave stormvermin he cant actually stagger them in a mixed horde so he ends up doing fairly badly with it there…unlike the new fancy brettonian sword.

Plenty of people who go into difficult content use the greatsword (twins+stuff), just as an example. The bretonnian sword is very cool overall but nowhere near as good as the greatsword or even the executioner when it comes to effectiveness in either horde combat or single target damage respectively.

@Frostysir

GuzT? Saw a vid on him soloing against the grain from last year and sure he killed a stormfiend pretty fast, not not silly fast at all. He also uses the longbow which isnt all that popular on huntsman anymore either, at least the last 10 i saw all used repeater instead.

Well, maybe you should watch more. Here’s a more recent example from Newt. The damage is there, the fact that people don’t exploit it is not a counter-argument.

click for twitch link

@Frostysir

Ironbreaker? ._. He even has the taunt.

I thought we were discussing Kruber vs Kruber and trying to understand why gk is p2w.

@Frostysir

.,.,I shall abstain from any great amounts of sarcasm, i simply greatly, greatly, disagree. Many many builds benefit extremely well from more power.

If it doesn’t change the number of hits you need to apply in order to kill something, or your ability to stagger an enemy, it literally does nothing.

@Frostysir

…Its only good when people are not taking damage? What? Then why the heck did you say that merc is any good? Temp health and damage reduction are only good when people are eating hits too. And normal health is superior to temp health for any but zealot.

Because there’s a world of difference between burst health (that comes prepackaged with stagger and DR), and the slow trickle of health over time. It’s as if saying that 100 FF is the same whether it comes from one shot in the butt served by a BH or fireball chip damage over a run.

@Frostysir

No indeed, but you are statistically very likely to score either power, regen or ult CDR.

They are literally insignificant benefits that don’t mean anything unless you are already winning.

[Adelion]

… why is this a balance discussion again? I mean we are all guilty of regularly derailing threads with off-topic stuff but is it really that hard to say: “Yea okay, let’s just disagree” and concentrate on the topic at hand?

I’m not even sure why we are discussing about P2W. The OP clearly talks about P2P.

[Frostysir]

@Throne_of_Rats

Plenty of people who go into difficult content use the greatsword (twins+stuff), just as an example. The bretonnian sword is very cool overall but nowhere near as good as the greatsword or even the executioner when it comes to effectiveness in either horde combat or single target damage respectively.

Anti horde weapons become silly valuable on twins just due to the sheer number of enemies that end up entering play. But even then its still a team reliant choice as greatsword has poor elite&boss damage.

Similarly anti elite weapons are valuable in deeds where those types are abundant and possibly extra tanky.

@Throne_of_Rats

Well, maybe you should watch more. Here’s a more recent example from Newt. The damage is there, the fact that people don’t exploit it is not a counter-argument.

Str pot, WHC tag and…it almost looks like a bug to be honest, saw another clip part of some video with a huntsman chunking a boss under similar circumstance but he did not do that much.

@Throne_of_Rats

I thought we were discussing Kruber vs Kruber and trying to understand why gk is p2w.

You mentioned people who might want to play tanks, i sidetracked and pointed out that IB is better at that particular job.

@Throne_of_Rats

If it doesn’t change the number of hits you need to apply in order to kill something, or your ability to stagger an enemy, it literally does nothing.

…Excuse me? O_O

Are we playing the same game? 10% power does not do anything for you on any weapon or career? I call bull on that <.<

More power = more damage, more stagger and more cleave.

@Throne_of_Rats

Because there’s a world of difference between burst health (that comes prepackaged with stagger and DR), and the slow trickle of health over time. It’s as if saying that 100 FF is the same whether it comes from one shot in the butt served by a BH or fireball chip damage over a run.

…I mean, if you are eating overheads then indeed 25% DR And a heap of temp health is better. If you are a bit more careful though and just get hit with chip damage then regen is by far better.

@Throne_of_Rats

They are literally insignificant benefits that don’t mean anything unless you are already winning.

What tha feck ._.

I cant remember them all from the top of my head but i know there are several abilities or weapons that benefit rather visibly from more hero power, handmaiden bladedancer for one example.

Fire flail, various shields and others also benefit from more stagger and or damage, and as for the regen, are you saying you never take any chip damage, FF damage or get hit by silent attacks from the presently rather famous “no backstabb sound bug”?